Gollum and Eagles: Deux ex machina?

[Raynor]

By the third one I'm convinced that entering Moria is not warranted at this time

That is, if you are not a dwarf - they seem to like going in a row into a trap .

when one arrogant elf would rise each morning

I am sure you meant a drunk elf.

we have no idea if Gildor Inglorion, Elrond and Gandalf, were, shall we say, simply blowing smoke.

I would give more credit to the greatest of lore-masters and the wisest of the maiar.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I would give more credit to the greatest of lore-masters and the wisest of the maiar.

But they could have an agenda (instilling the 'Eru exists' theory into the hobbits) or simply be delusional.

[Elu Ancalime]

Concerning Eagles: It seems that in terms of literature, everytime the Eagles appear in Tolkiens work it is some kind of Deux ex machina kind of way. Its interesting, because the Eagles are the kind of missionaries of Manwe, in a sense (they dont go around converting people, but they are his sort of representations in mortal lands). Everytime the Eagles show up it seems to modify the plot greatly whearas if they hadnt. The Dwarves might have had to trek endlessly until they made it across the Andunin, and delayed Gandalfs coming to Dol Gulder and the White Council. The Battle of Five Armies might have been a loss, or more Pyrric. Although the Eagles attcked the Nazgul at the Black Gate, we can see this led to Mount Doom. And of course, we might have had a wizards corpse on Orthanc.

Considering Gollum and the Eagles, it brings up that interesting point of fatalism mentioned. I think that in Arda, all things excluding Eru and the Valar for the most part are meant to be. Now, part of this is Mandos. The prophocey of the Dagorath proves he Eru and Manwe and anyone else know of the last battle with Melkor. However, I do not think that they know each and every thing that will happen. The Valar have the Fire, so they make choices; yet the ones that seem the most important come before the Elves. That is mainly which Ainar went with Melko and who stayed with Manwe. After then the choices are mostly one-sided. The War of Wrath is no exception; whenever Morgoth created Mass war that was destroying Middle Earth, the Valar were the only ones who could stop him if no oine else could. So I think, like Gandalf predicted, that the Ring would be destroyed, but the manner of "how" is the unknown. The destruction of the Ring, at least when spoke about the most Wise (Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, etc) was always hinted at as,"You realize what would happen if Sauron and the RIng wernt destroyed," even though it would mean,"We known that Sauron is fated to be destroyed eventually(couldnt survive the Dagorath if it was that long) so lets take him out before things get any worse."

So I dont think Mandos and Eru knew that Ted Sandyman would be a pain, (doubtless they had the power, but that was not what it was for) but I think they knew that a being named Gandalf would aid Free Peoples including the Little People to bring about the destruction of Sauron, and a sebret Blueprint and DNA sheet of Balrogs and their bodily extremities.
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[Nogrod]

Last night I really seemed to have been carried away beyond my skills in the language I use. Sorry about that. I appreciate Elu's point about the Eagles.

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

Concerning Eagles: It seems that in terms of literature, everytime the Eagles appear in Tolkiens work it is some kind of Deux ex machina kind of way. Its interesting, because the Eagles are the kind of missionaries of Manwe, in a sense (they dont go around converting people, but they are his sort of representations in mortal lands). Everytime the Eagles show up it seems to modify the plot greatly whearas if they hadnt.

But to come to the discussion opened by Squatter of Amon Rhûdh

The point is that Tolkien thought that this world is one in which we have the freedom to choose our actions and that we are personally responsible for them. For Tolkien, each decision really does come down to a moral choice for good or ill, and without that structure his mythology and his novels make no sense. Moreover it would be extremely odd for a Christian to believe that we are simply automatons performing predetermined actions in a random and meaningless universe.

Well, that sure was Tolkien's point - I couldn't dream about arguing over that. But how should we see it? As ingenious truth about the world? As Tolkien's wisdom that outweighted many of his contemporaries, as a foolish hope of a romantic living at a wrong century, or as a fool that would gather followers more fool than he was?

Not wishing to offend anyone...

[Elu Ancalime]

What my beleif on Tolkien is that characters had choice that was moral, and they were given thus chance to make that choice free of supernatural intervention, but Eru and Mandos and who-not knew that choice. So it really is free will, but just they know what will happen and how it will end up; so rather than being omnipresent and omnipotent through time, its rather like a computer playing chess: They can analyze every possible move, and can draw conclusions what will happen vecause of it, but they cant influence the human players' move.
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[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

What my beleif on Tolkien is that characters had choice that was moral, and they were given thus chance to make that choice free of supernatural intervention, but Eru and Mandos and who-not knew that choice. So it really is free will, but just they know what will happen and how it will end up; so rather than being omnipresent and omnipotent through time, its rather like a computer playing chess: They can analyze every possible move, and can draw conclusions what will happen vecause of it, but they cant influence the human players' move.

Well. That's always the good question: if someone knows your choice beforehand, is it a real choice anymore? And why would some God let her creations to choose badly anyhow? What would be the point? She would anyhow know beforehand, who would be "guessing" right, and who would not, so predeterming everything anyhow?

[AragornII]

Sorry if this isn't about what you guys are currently discussing, but I've been thinking about the "deus ex machina" thing.

In school we've been studying Shakespeare, and a "deus ex machina" was usually something like an angel or a "savior" figure that comes from the the top of the stage unexpectedly, lowered down by a machine similar to a crane. This event would happen towards the end of the play This fits the meaning of the phrase, which is "god out of machine".

Looking at it in that perspective, I'd say that the Eagles were more of a "deus ex machina" than Gollum was. They were literally saving figures coming from the sky at the end of the story, and to those who hadn't read the books, were totally unexpected. However, they did not help with the main purpose of the story. The main purpose was to destroy the Ring. They didn't really have much to do with the actual act of destroying it. It was good that they came and saved Frodo (and Sam), because it made the story better, but I don't think they meet the full criteria for "deus ex machina".

Gollum, on the other hand, fulfills the other half of the criteria. He comes out of nowhere to help with the main purpose of the story, destroying the Ring. In fact, without him, that would never have happened. But he doesn't come out of the sky, or from above. He is unexpected, though. So the way I see it, Gollum isn't fully a "deus ex machina" either.

This is just what I thought while reading the earlier parts of this thread.