Il Principe (of Beleriand...) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Feanor of the Peredhil · 03-01-2006, 03:21 PM

How do I best resist Morgoth?

Don't. "Hey Morgoth, how's it going?" And then, once you're less likely to die a quick (or maybe severely prolonged) death, think carefully on ways to mess with him from the inside. Sure he's got loads of orcs he can sacrifice, but how many elven princes are on the inside?

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Chat over the occasional cup of tea. Maybe a game or two of curling in the winter to spice things up a bit. Don't promise anything, but make sure he knows you're a pretty chill guy.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

If you want a long-lasting princedom, ban jewelry. Call it what you want... tell your smiths that Eru likes modesty and that such ornamentation is vanity... whatever it takes to keep people from thinking "Hm, I'll bet that silmaril would make a nice engagement ring."

To be honest, you really don't want an official alliance with these guys. They're crazy. You want predictable pals. When Morgoth's attacking and you need assistance, you don't want friends whose first thought will be "Is he attacking because they stole my bling? Maybe we should let Morgoth do the job of it and teach them suttin fierce for takin' our shine."

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

Fortresses are bad. As soon as you build a fortress (most specifically if it has a moat), you are daring your enemies to try out your defenses. You're publicly declaring your fear of assault and you're stating that your walls can't be breached. It's an open invitation.

Hidden city: same thing. "Nah nah nah nah nah nah, you can't find us!" It's a dare. Prudent rulers aren't going to make bold statements.

Caves: if they don't have a back door, you can get trapped, and if they do, you can get invaded from more than one entrance.

Seaside haven: do you really want to be trapped between legions of enemies and a tempestuous ocean?

Enchanted forest: Probably the best idea, but make sure they are legitimate enchantments. You don't want tempermental magic that's going to let your enemies sneak up in the middle of the night. If your base of operations is in the middle of a forest and your magic conks out, your enemies have tree-cover. They'll be able to get close before your scouts spot them.

As with the answer on how best to deal with Morgoth, do it by staying in the open. If you hide, you're practically begging to be sought out. The best secret is one kept in the open.

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

If by about them, you mean to them, don't. Dwarves hold grudges. Don't worry about men. The ones annoying you will die quickly enough anyhow.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

One involved a lot of laughing, singing, dancing, and Marmite. What's the point of surviving all this time if you've got nothing to live for?

Kuruharan · 03-01-2006, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Insight a chronic nationalistic xenophobia in your subjects. Slay all strangers.

Harsh yes, but for the greater good.

Lalwende would be appalled.

Quote:

You want predictable pals.

Could you possibly recall this the next time you play werewolf...particularly if I'm playing.

Elu Ancalime · 03-01-2006, 08:36 PM

How do I best resist Morgoth?
Have another kingdom or two on his path to me. He will be resisted there, and perhaps distracted.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?
Quite. On a easygoing, trading level, with ambassadors and such. Send him wine.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?As little as possible. Do not ever come in contact with Jewls, cast them aside. Be invisible to Feanor's sons.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?
One thats sunny and slightly elevated, so can see miles in advance. Surronded by Plains, but rocky at that, sort of like the Wold and East Wall of Rohan.

Do I go for:
A The cave network approach
B The hidden city approach
C The enchanted forest approach
D The seaside haven approach
E The massive great try-this-for-size-Morgoth-old-chap fortress approach
A walled city in a forest on a river that is no more than 40 miles away from the Sea. That way, forest and walls help defend, and if attacked can flee to the Sea, take residence and give tribute to Kuru's kingdom.
What do I do about Dwarves and Men?
Trade with dwarves, but keep on a strictly capitalist level; be friendly to men, yet do not harbour them for long, especially heros that are followed by curses and dragons, and be ever doubtful of their military suggestions.
What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?
A unique but peaceful one. A sort of Lindon, that is never at war on its own land, can go to the Sea for comfort, and has allies that are between it and the Enemy.

I call it.....Er-Nimton "One White City," ruled by Finarfin's grandson Kevin I son of Orodreth, raised by an Eagle who found him playing by the shore of the Narog after the Battle of Tumhalad.

It puts Turgon to shame.....

________
Interceptor

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-01-2006, 08:52 PM

I am a Noldorin Prince, right?

How do I best resist Morgoth?

I get stuck into him at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Since he is not interested in getting stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses, he is of little interest to me.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

I’m one of them, probably. If not, I co-operate with them, because it gives me the chance to get stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

Anywhere on the front line, enabling me to get stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

I respect Dwarves’ skill with metal and trade with them to obtain the best weapons and armour available, thus facilitating my aim to get stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

I use Men as cannon fodder in the front line whenever I am getting stuck into Morgoth, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

One that values getting stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses.

I don't survive for very long ...

Alcarillo · 03-01-2006, 11:31 PM

How do I best resist Morgoth?

By only attacking when you have a chance at winning. That means killings orcs that venture into your territory, outnumbering your enemy, and keeping an eye out for what Morgoth might do next. Don't recklessly charge Angband with your glittering hosts of elven warriors. Morgoth can just unleash his dragons, balrogs, etc. upon you and wreak havoc upon your army. Fight the small battles away from Angband, when you're on home turf. Try not to go on the offensive, it'll only put you on Morgoth's to-be-destroyed list.

Keep a good eye on the borders of your kingdom. Built watchtowers and outposts where necessary. Keep them stocked with gear and food for soldiers on the march.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Fairly friendly. You should send messengers to him bearing gifts and promising friendship. You, with combined armies, can be secure knowing that Morgoth will think twice about swooping down from the north to kill you. There's strength in numbers.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

Try not to get involved with the whole oath/doom/kinslaying affair. It only brings trouble. Don’t make any solid alliances with any of them. In fact, the less you deal with them, the better. If you're unlucky enough to find a Silmaril in your hands, hand it over immediately. It's of little worth to yourself, and getting rid of it will deter the next kinslaying.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

I would choose a site near the mountains, full of rocky, hilly terrain and thick forests. It'd be difficult for an army to maneuver in there. You should also preferably be near one or two major rivers, to act as easily defendable natural borders.

Do I go for:
A The cave network approach

A cave network is hidden underground, provides escape through numerous backdoors and secret passages, easily defended at a few major entrances, not obvious to find, and can still be a beautiful site for your throne. Plus, only you and your people know exactly the size of your caves. Morgoth would have a hard time pinpointing all the exits!

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

Treat them with respect. If there are Dwarves in the nearby mountains, I'm sure they'll be glad to help you hew your caves out of the rock. Establishing trade with them is excellent, too. Just be careful about your alliances. An alliance with Thingol won't impress the dwarves in the long run, and vice versa.

As for Men, let them roam your kingdom; they're mostly harmless. Being friendly with them won’t hurt, and I'm sure they'd be glad to fight alongside you when orcs attack. Aside from that, you probably don't have much use for them.

But don't trust them too much. Let them settle at the kingdom's edges, but not within, lest they be captured by Morgoth and the secret locations of your outposts are given away.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

A secluded Elven stronghold, strongly defended and rarely venturing beyond its borders. You should be friendly towards all and fight only when attacked. Your strongest allies are the Sindar, and you are on friendly terms with Men and Dwarves. Your kingdom is rather estranged from the other Noldor, and you tend to stay out of their business.

Tuor of Gondolin · 03-02-2006, 07:24 AM

On a mostly offtopic point:

Quote:

The cave network approach

Got me to muse on the lack of preparedness of
Nargothrond. It should have been easy to prepare escape
tunnels, not unlike The Gliitering Caves of Aglarond,
and, thanks to Idril, even Gondolin had a bit of an escape hatch,
a system in Nargothrond would have allowed a number of
elves, including a would be girlfriend of Turin's, to escape.

Lalaith · 03-02-2006, 09:15 AM

Hmmm....first off, my initial problem was that the flight of the Noldor from Valinor was an essentially quixotic venture, about as unMachiavellian as it could possibly be. Sure, the various family branches came with different motives, but none of them could be described as pragmatic. In other words, Saucie's analysis is pretty accurate.
The second problem is that of contributing to history. For survival tactics based on neutrality, the obvious modern-day blueprint to follow is Switzerland. But how interesting is a history of Switzerland? William Tell, Zwingli, banks and chocolate are the high points, not enough to fill more than a side note in a great heroic epic...
Anyway,
How do I best resist Morgoth?
Initiate a well-funded and comprehensive programme of training and education. "Orc Control - the Neuro-Linguistic Route." "The Seven Habits of Effective Warriors". "The Lies of Morgoth and how to nail them." "Silmaril 14-Day Detox". Operate a policy of affirmative action for your courses. Make sure you have a good ratio of non-domestic students, and that you fill your quotas of non-Edain mortals, dwarves(however petty), the Avari. These were a much-neglected pool of Morgoth-fighting potential.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

All overtures should be made through his much more sensible wife. Perhaps she might be interested in funding a Melian Scholarship?

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?
Get them on the Sil detox programme, of course.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

Do I go for:
A The cave network approach
B The hidden city approach
C The enchanted forest approach
D The seaside haven approach
E The massive great try-this-for-size-Morgoth-old-chap fortress approach

Hmm...my instincts veer towards C or more likely D (Eglarest, anyone?) The educational programme is of course a front for the surreptitious shipbuilding. This has a double benefit: your people have a means of escape if attacked, (Morgoth didn't seem to have any Corsair-style naval fleet at this point, did he?) plus the long-term goal getting the Valar eventually onside seems to combine the quixotic and constructive in a rather satisfactory way.

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?
See first point.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

I can't better Feanor's proposal - all except the Marmite. Bleugh. Get the Dorwinian trade going with some imports of champers, instead.

03-01-2006, 03:21 PM	#1
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	How do I best resist Morgoth? Don't. "Hey Morgoth, how's it going?" And then, once you're less likely to die a quick (or maybe severely prolonged) death, think carefully on ways to mess with him from the inside. Sure he's got loads of orcs he can sacrifice, but how many elven princes are on the inside? Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. How friendly should I be with Thingol? Chat over the occasional cup of tea. Maybe a game or two of curling in the winter to spice things up a bit. Don't promise anything, but make sure he knows you're a pretty chill guy. How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives? If you want a long-lasting princedom, ban jewelry. Call it what you want... tell your smiths that Eru likes modesty and that such ornamentation is vanity... whatever it takes to keep people from thinking "Hm, I'll bet that silmaril would make a nice engagement ring." To be honest, you really don't want an official alliance with these guys. They're crazy. You want predictable pals. When Morgoth's attacking and you need assistance, you don't want friends whose first thought will be "Is he attacking because they stole my bling? Maybe we should let Morgoth do the job of it and teach them suttin fierce for takin' our shine." What sort of site would be good for my kingdom? Fortresses are bad. As soon as you build a fortress (most specifically if it has a moat), you are daring your enemies to try out your defenses. You're publicly declaring your fear of assault and you're stating that your walls can't be breached. It's an open invitation. Hidden city: same thing. "Nah nah nah nah nah nah, you can't find us!" It's a dare. Prudent rulers aren't going to make bold statements. Caves: if they don't have a back door, you can get trapped, and if they do, you can get invaded from more than one entrance. Seaside haven: do you really want to be trapped between legions of enemies and a tempestuous ocean? Enchanted forest: Probably the best idea, but make sure they are legitimate enchantments. You don't want tempermental magic that's going to let your enemies sneak up in the middle of the night. If your base of operations is in the middle of a forest and your magic conks out, your enemies have tree-cover. They'll be able to get close before your scouts spot them. As with the answer on how best to deal with Morgoth, do it by staying in the open. If you hide, you're practically begging to be sought out. The best secret is one kept in the open. What do I do about Dwarves and Men? If by about them, you mean to them, don't. Dwarves hold grudges. Don't worry about men. The ones annoying you will die quickly enough anyhow. What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for? One involved a lot of laughing, singing, dancing, and Marmite. What's the point of surviving all this time if you've got nothing to live for? __________________ peace

03-01-2006, 08:36 PM	#3
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	How do I best resist Morgoth? Have another kingdom or two on his path to me. He will be resisted there, and perhaps distracted. How friendly should I be with Thingol? Quite. On a easygoing, trading level, with ambassadors and such. Send him wine. How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?As little as possible. Do not ever come in contact with Jewls, cast them aside. Be invisible to Feanor's sons. What sort of site would be good for my kingdom? One thats sunny and slightly elevated, so can see miles in advance. Surronded by Plains, but rocky at that, sort of like the Wold and East Wall of Rohan. Do I go for: A The cave network approach B The hidden city approach C The enchanted forest approach D The seaside haven approach E The massive great try-this-for-size-Morgoth-old-chap fortress approach A walled city in a forest on a river that is no more than 40 miles away from the Sea. That way, forest and walls help defend, and if attacked can flee to the Sea, take residence and give tribute to Kuru's kingdom. What do I do about Dwarves and Men? Trade with dwarves, but keep on a strictly capitalist level; be friendly to men, yet do not harbour them for long, especially heros that are followed by curses and dragons, and be ever doubtful of their military suggestions. What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for? A unique but peaceful one. A sort of Lindon, that is never at war on its own land, can go to the Sea for comfort, and has allies that are between it and the Enemy. I call it.....Er-Nimton "One White City," ruled by Finarfin's grandson Kevin I son of Orodreth, raised by an Eagle who found him playing by the shore of the Narog after the Battle of Tumhalad. It puts Turgon to shame..... ________ Interceptor Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:16 PM.

03-01-2006, 08:52 PM	#4
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I am a Noldorin Prince, right? How do I best resist Morgoth? I get stuck into him at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses. How friendly should I be with Thingol? Since he is not interested in getting stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses, he is of little interest to me. How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives? I’m one of them, probably. If not, I co-operate with them, because it gives me the chance to get stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses. What sort of site would be good for my kingdom? Anywhere on the front line, enabling me to get stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses. What do I do about Dwarves and Men? I respect Dwarves’ skill with metal and trade with them to obtain the best weapons and armour available, thus facilitating my aim to get stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses. I use Men as cannon fodder in the front line whenever I am getting stuck into Morgoth, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses. What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for? One that values getting stuck into Morgoth at every opportunity, usually valiantly, heroically (and most likely suicidally) and with great losses. I don't survive for very long ... __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-02-2006, 09:15 AM	#7
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Hmmm....first off, my initial problem was that the flight of the Noldor from Valinor was an essentially quixotic venture, about as unMachiavellian as it could possibly be. Sure, the various family branches came with different motives, but none of them could be described as pragmatic. In other words, Saucie's analysis is pretty accurate. The second problem is that of contributing to history. For survival tactics based on neutrality, the obvious modern-day blueprint to follow is Switzerland. But how interesting is a history of Switzerland? William Tell, Zwingli, banks and chocolate are the high points, not enough to fill more than a side note in a great heroic epic... Anyway, How do I best resist Morgoth? Initiate a well-funded and comprehensive programme of training and education. "Orc Control - the Neuro-Linguistic Route." "The Seven Habits of Effective Warriors". "The Lies of Morgoth and how to nail them." "Silmaril 14-Day Detox". Operate a policy of affirmative action for your courses. Make sure you have a good ratio of non-domestic students, and that you fill your quotas of non-Edain mortals, dwarves(however petty), the Avari. These were a much-neglected pool of Morgoth-fighting potential. How friendly should I be with Thingol? All overtures should be made through his much more sensible wife. Perhaps she might be interested in funding a Melian Scholarship? How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives? Get them on the Sil detox programme, of course. What sort of site would be good for my kingdom? Do I go for: A The cave network approach B The hidden city approach C The enchanted forest approach D The seaside haven approach E The massive great try-this-for-size-Morgoth-old-chap fortress approach Hmm...my instincts veer towards C or more likely D (Eglarest, anyone?) The educational programme is of course a front for the surreptitious shipbuilding. This has a double benefit: your people have a means of escape if attacked, (Morgoth didn't seem to have any Corsair-style naval fleet at this point, did he?) plus the long-term goal getting the Valar eventually onside seems to combine the quixotic and constructive in a rather satisfactory way. What do I do about Dwarves and Men? See first point. What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for? I can't better Feanor's proposal - all except the Marmite. Bleugh. Get the Dorwinian trade going with some imports of champers, instead. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-01-2006, 11:31 PM	#5
Alcarillo Shadow of the Past Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Minas Mor-go Posts: 1,007	How do I best resist Morgoth? By only attacking when you have a chance at winning. That means killings orcs that venture into your territory, outnumbering your enemy, and keeping an eye out for what Morgoth might do next. Don't recklessly charge Angband with your glittering hosts of elven warriors. Morgoth can just unleash his dragons, balrogs, etc. upon you and wreak havoc upon your army. Fight the small battles away from Angband, when you're on home turf. Try not to go on the offensive, it'll only put you on Morgoth's to-be-destroyed list. Keep a good eye on the borders of your kingdom. Built watchtowers and outposts where necessary. Keep them stocked with gear and food for soldiers on the march. How friendly should I be with Thingol? Fairly friendly. You should send messengers to him bearing gifts and promising friendship. You, with combined armies, can be secure knowing that Morgoth will think twice about swooping down from the north to kill you. There's strength in numbers. How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives? Try not to get involved with the whole oath/doom/kinslaying affair. It only brings trouble. Don’t make any solid alliances with any of them. In fact, the less you deal with them, the better. If you're unlucky enough to find a Silmaril in your hands, hand it over immediately. It's of little worth to yourself, and getting rid of it will deter the next kinslaying. What sort of site would be good for my kingdom? I would choose a site near the mountains, full of rocky, hilly terrain and thick forests. It'd be difficult for an army to maneuver in there. You should also preferably be near one or two major rivers, to act as easily defendable natural borders. Do I go for: A The cave network approach A cave network is hidden underground, provides escape through numerous backdoors and secret passages, easily defended at a few major entrances, not obvious to find, and can still be a beautiful site for your throne. Plus, only you and your people know exactly the size of your caves. Morgoth would have a hard time pinpointing all the exits! What do I do about Dwarves and Men? Treat them with respect. If there are Dwarves in the nearby mountains, I'm sure they'll be glad to help you hew your caves out of the rock. Establishing trade with them is excellent, too. Just be careful about your alliances. An alliance with Thingol won't impress the dwarves in the long run, and vice versa. As for Men, let them roam your kingdom; they're mostly harmless. Being friendly with them won’t hurt, and I'm sure they'd be glad to fight alongside you when orcs attack. Aside from that, you probably don't have much use for them. But don't trust them too much. Let them settle at the kingdom's edges, but not within, lest they be captured by Morgoth and the secret locations of your outposts are given away. *What sort of culture* am I ideally aiming for?** A secluded Elven stronghold, strongly defended and rarely venturing beyond its borders. You should be friendly towards all and fight only when attacked. Your strongest allies are the Sindar, and you are on friendly terms with Men and Dwarves. Your kingdom is rather estranged from the other Noldor, and you tend to stay out of their business.