Il Principe (of Beleriand...) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alcarillo · 03-01-2006, 11:31 PM

How do I best resist Morgoth?

By only attacking when you have a chance at winning. That means killings orcs that venture into your territory, outnumbering your enemy, and keeping an eye out for what Morgoth might do next. Don't recklessly charge Angband with your glittering hosts of elven warriors. Morgoth can just unleash his dragons, balrogs, etc. upon you and wreak havoc upon your army. Fight the small battles away from Angband, when you're on home turf. Try not to go on the offensive, it'll only put you on Morgoth's to-be-destroyed list.

Keep a good eye on the borders of your kingdom. Built watchtowers and outposts where necessary. Keep them stocked with gear and food for soldiers on the march.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Fairly friendly. You should send messengers to him bearing gifts and promising friendship. You, with combined armies, can be secure knowing that Morgoth will think twice about swooping down from the north to kill you. There's strength in numbers.

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

Try not to get involved with the whole oath/doom/kinslaying affair. It only brings trouble. Don’t make any solid alliances with any of them. In fact, the less you deal with them, the better. If you're unlucky enough to find a Silmaril in your hands, hand it over immediately. It's of little worth to yourself, and getting rid of it will deter the next kinslaying.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

I would choose a site near the mountains, full of rocky, hilly terrain and thick forests. It'd be difficult for an army to maneuver in there. You should also preferably be near one or two major rivers, to act as easily defendable natural borders.

Do I go for:
A The cave network approach

A cave network is hidden underground, provides escape through numerous backdoors and secret passages, easily defended at a few major entrances, not obvious to find, and can still be a beautiful site for your throne. Plus, only you and your people know exactly the size of your caves. Morgoth would have a hard time pinpointing all the exits!

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

Treat them with respect. If there are Dwarves in the nearby mountains, I'm sure they'll be glad to help you hew your caves out of the rock. Establishing trade with them is excellent, too. Just be careful about your alliances. An alliance with Thingol won't impress the dwarves in the long run, and vice versa.

As for Men, let them roam your kingdom; they're mostly harmless. Being friendly with them won’t hurt, and I'm sure they'd be glad to fight alongside you when orcs attack. Aside from that, you probably don't have much use for them.

But don't trust them too much. Let them settle at the kingdom's edges, but not within, lest they be captured by Morgoth and the secret locations of your outposts are given away.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

A secluded Elven stronghold, strongly defended and rarely venturing beyond its borders. You should be friendly towards all and fight only when attacked. Your strongest allies are the Sindar, and you are on friendly terms with Men and Dwarves. Your kingdom is rather estranged from the other Noldor, and you tend to stay out of their business.

Tuor of Gondolin · 03-02-2006, 07:24 AM

On a mostly offtopic point:

Quote:

The cave network approach

Got me to muse on the lack of preparedness of
Nargothrond. It should have been easy to prepare escape
tunnels, not unlike The Gliitering Caves of Aglarond,
and, thanks to Idril, even Gondolin had a bit of an escape hatch,
a system in Nargothrond would have allowed a number of
elves, including a would be girlfriend of Turin's, to escape.

Lalaith · 03-02-2006, 09:15 AM

Hmmm....first off, my initial problem was that the flight of the Noldor from Valinor was an essentially quixotic venture, about as unMachiavellian as it could possibly be. Sure, the various family branches came with different motives, but none of them could be described as pragmatic. In other words, Saucie's analysis is pretty accurate.
The second problem is that of contributing to history. For survival tactics based on neutrality, the obvious modern-day blueprint to follow is Switzerland. But how interesting is a history of Switzerland? William Tell, Zwingli, banks and chocolate are the high points, not enough to fill more than a side note in a great heroic epic...
Anyway,
How do I best resist Morgoth?
Initiate a well-funded and comprehensive programme of training and education. "Orc Control - the Neuro-Linguistic Route." "The Seven Habits of Effective Warriors". "The Lies of Morgoth and how to nail them." "Silmaril 14-Day Detox". Operate a policy of affirmative action for your courses. Make sure you have a good ratio of non-domestic students, and that you fill your quotas of non-Edain mortals, dwarves(however petty), the Avari. These were a much-neglected pool of Morgoth-fighting potential.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

All overtures should be made through his much more sensible wife. Perhaps she might be interested in funding a Melian Scholarship?

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?
Get them on the Sil detox programme, of course.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?

Do I go for:
A The cave network approach
B The hidden city approach
C The enchanted forest approach
D The seaside haven approach
E The massive great try-this-for-size-Morgoth-old-chap fortress approach

Hmm...my instincts veer towards C or more likely D (Eglarest, anyone?) The educational programme is of course a front for the surreptitious shipbuilding. This has a double benefit: your people have a means of escape if attacked, (Morgoth didn't seem to have any Corsair-style naval fleet at this point, did he?) plus the long-term goal getting the Valar eventually onside seems to combine the quixotic and constructive in a rather satisfactory way.

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?
See first point.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

I can't better Feanor's proposal - all except the Marmite. Bleugh. Get the Dorwinian trade going with some imports of champers, instead.

littlemanpoet · 03-03-2006, 08:49 PM

Who said survival is the goal?

How do I best resist Morgoth?Don't think for a second you can possibly "get inside and cause trouble"; that's more quixotic than the seven sons of Feanor! You're Noldoran. Craft armaments. Stay out of the intrigues of political infighting. Don't get attracted by some femme fatale Elf-maiden. Have nothing to do with the children of Hurin.

How friendly should I be with Thingol? Don't bother. He doesn't like Noldorans and he's doomed anyway.

[b]How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?]/b]Steer clear of them.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?Go to Eregion and beat Celebrimbor to his own game. That way you just might meet up with Galadriel and be in Lorien instead of Celeborn at the end of the Third Age. Till the soil. Husband the beasts. Befriend the Trees. Make friends with every living thing you can, including the Gold-, Silver-, Blue-, Rasp- and whatever else-berrys and Tom Bomba-whatevers littered across the natural lands and rivers. Can't hurt, though it may not help a lot, and sure to provide a lot of native wisdom.

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?Trade but that's it.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?Noldoran craft married to native Sindarin nature-loving. Sow the seeds of health in the land, the stronger to resist the coming onset of such harrowings as will arise from the Witch King and Sauron.

Macalaure · 03-30-2006, 01:42 PM

How do I best resist Morgoth?

Know your enemy and conceal your own strength.
I would kill or capture any scout that Morgoth sends near my realm.
On the other hand I would generously welcome anybody who was able to flee from Angband. Of course they will not be allowed to leave again, since each of them is an assumed spy.
When I see my opportunity I would gather as many allies as I can and attack. I'm not going to sit it out until the War of Wrath.

How friendly should I be with Thingol?

Persuading Thingol into joining me and my allies is quite hopeless.
Maybe I would send Melian some chocolate, as she seems to be the only one who has influence on him. (I need to get his armies, somehow)

How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?

Case 1: I'm one of them.
If my attack succeeds, then those little stones are mi-hine. Until then I would do anything to get my brothers to cool down and be patient, where 'anything' includes locking them up. Especially those Cs tend to cause trouble everytime they can.
If my attack fails, then... well... I think the Everlasting Dark doesn't sound that bad.

Case 2: I'm not one of them.
I would print words like "I would not take these things, if they lay by the highway." on all my banners in very, very big letters and hold on to them.
That way Feanor's Sons should be quite dependable allies. As if I have a choice.

And if someday some mortal appears with a former ring of mine, he gets the boot.

What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?
I go for:
A The cave network approach

A hidden city would work as well, but places to hide a whole city are rare in Beleriand.
So to conceal my strength I go for the caves. (On the other hand: Not knowing my strength will make Morgoth assume the worst. Have to rethink that...)

What do I do about Dwarves and Men?

If even Caranthir was not able to sufficiently insult the Dwarves, then they are obviously not as quick to resentment as is said. With a little trade them joining me won't be a problem, I think.

Men are useful in battle, so I'd like to have plenty of them at my disposal. I will have lots of unused space around my caves, they can have it.
Go and multiply!
Maybe I set up my caves east of the Blue Mountains to civilize the Easterlings. The Emyn Uial look nice.

But if someday a guy with a former ring of mine appears and asks for help, he still gets the boot.
And if somebody calling himself the Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate, appears with a former disobedient captain of mine and tries to talk me into building a huge bridge, he gets the other boot.

What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?

Hiding in caves and biding the right time, weaving my webs of intrigue in silence.
And trying to keep my allies from slaughtering each other.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-30-2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Men are useful in battle, so I'd like to have plenty of them at my disposal.

Spoken like a true Elven Lord!

Welcome to the Downs, Macalaure.

03-31-2006, 01:04 PM

About this topic i would only speak of the first question because i have much thinking to do about all the other questions and im sure you will find this post wite long....so
How do i Resist Morgoth???
On this point i wolud have to agree with Anguirel, in the fact that the Noldor shouldn`t retreat nor hide from Morgoth, I really think that most ofthe battles of beleriand would have been won if only the noldorin weren`t mising something important : Patience and Union among them.

Quote:

Quote

I suggest-build up grand alliances with Elves of whatever stamp, if at all possible. Swear an oath of mutual respect (like that sworn by the Greek princes of the Iliad). Foster connections with Men and Naugrim. With unity, the free peoples of Beleriand could have been greater than a thousand Valarin relief forces!

I know that the odds of winning against Morgoth or any Valar (as diminished and unworthy of the name he might be) are very narrow if not nule at all, but by destroying his armies and cornering him just like in the siege of angband but in a far strict level, a united army of the elves combined with men and dwarves, would have (and suceed) in the task of safekeeping middle earth until the war of wrath, and that would be precisely the task appointed to our Noldorin prince, to create and maintain a true STATE, united and supportive in wich the peace would have lasted for many years.... of course lots and lots of great warriors and mighty beings wolud be at risk and the chances for them to be completely lost are high, and there would have been a NIRNAETH for sure but Just as Tolkien says, when he speaks about the other sons of Finwë (Fingolfin and Finarfin), if they would have not existed (and perished) the way they did, the Noldor would never had the fame and rename they had in the eras to come and all of their great deeds would not exist in the songs.....

03-02-2006, 09:15 AM	#3
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Hmmm....first off, my initial problem was that the flight of the Noldor from Valinor was an essentially quixotic venture, about as unMachiavellian as it could possibly be. Sure, the various family branches came with different motives, but none of them could be described as pragmatic. In other words, Saucie's analysis is pretty accurate. The second problem is that of contributing to history. For survival tactics based on neutrality, the obvious modern-day blueprint to follow is Switzerland. But how interesting is a history of Switzerland? William Tell, Zwingli, banks and chocolate are the high points, not enough to fill more than a side note in a great heroic epic... Anyway, How do I best resist Morgoth? Initiate a well-funded and comprehensive programme of training and education. "Orc Control - the Neuro-Linguistic Route." "The Seven Habits of Effective Warriors". "The Lies of Morgoth and how to nail them." "Silmaril 14-Day Detox". Operate a policy of affirmative action for your courses. Make sure you have a good ratio of non-domestic students, and that you fill your quotas of non-Edain mortals, dwarves(however petty), the Avari. These were a much-neglected pool of Morgoth-fighting potential. How friendly should I be with Thingol? All overtures should be made through his much more sensible wife. Perhaps she might be interested in funding a Melian Scholarship? How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives? Get them on the Sil detox programme, of course. What sort of site would be good for my kingdom? Do I go for: A The cave network approach B The hidden city approach C The enchanted forest approach D The seaside haven approach E The massive great try-this-for-size-Morgoth-old-chap fortress approach Hmm...my instincts veer towards C or more likely D (Eglarest, anyone?) The educational programme is of course a front for the surreptitious shipbuilding. This has a double benefit: your people have a means of escape if attacked, (Morgoth didn't seem to have any Corsair-style naval fleet at this point, did he?) plus the long-term goal getting the Valar eventually onside seems to combine the quixotic and constructive in a rather satisfactory way. What do I do about Dwarves and Men? See first point. What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for? I can't better Feanor's proposal - all except the Marmite. Bleugh. Get the Dorwinian trade going with some imports of champers, instead. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-30-2006, 01:42 PM	#5
Macalaure Fading Fëanorion Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: into the flood again Posts: 2,911	How do I best resist Morgoth? Know your enemy and conceal your own strength. I would kill or capture any scout that Morgoth sends near my realm. On the other hand I would generously welcome anybody who was able to flee from Angband. Of course they will not be allowed to leave again, since each of them is an assumed spy. When I see my opportunity I would gather as many allies as I can and attack. I'm not going to sit it out until the War of Wrath. How friendly should I be with Thingol? Persuading Thingol into joining me and my allies is quite hopeless. Maybe I would send Melian some chocolate, as she seems to be the only one who has influence on him. (I need to get his armies, somehow) How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives? Case 1: I'm one of them. If my attack succeeds, then those little stones are mi-hine. Until then I would do anything to get my brothers to cool down and be patient, where 'anything' includes locking them up. Especially those Cs tend to cause trouble everytime they can. If my attack fails, then... well... I think the Everlasting Dark doesn't sound that bad. Case 2: I'm not one of them. I would print words like "I would not take these things, if they lay by the highway." on all my banners in very, very big letters and hold on to them. That way Feanor's Sons should be quite dependable allies. As if I have a choice. And if someday some mortal appears with a former ring of mine, he gets the boot. What sort of site would be good for my kingdom? I go for: A The cave network approach A hidden city would work as well, but places to hide a whole city are rare in Beleriand. So to conceal my strength I go for the caves. (On the other hand: Not knowing my strength will make Morgoth assume the worst. Have to rethink that...) What do I do about Dwarves and Men? If even Caranthir was not able to sufficiently insult the Dwarves, then they are obviously not as quick to resentment as is said. With a little trade them joining me won't be a problem, I think. Men are useful in battle, so I'd like to have plenty of them at my disposal. I will have lots of unused space around my caves, they can have it. Go and multiply! Maybe I set up my caves east of the Blue Mountains to civilize the Easterlings. The Emyn Uial look nice. But if someday a guy with a former ring of mine appears and asks for help, he still gets the boot. And if somebody calling himself the Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate, appears with a former disobedient captain of mine and tries to talk me into building a huge bridge, he gets the other boot. What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for? Hiding in caves and biding the right time, weaving my webs of intrigue in silence. And trying to keep my allies from slaughtering each other. Last edited by Macalaure; 03-30-2006 at 01:49 PM.

03-01-2006, 11:31 PM	#1
Alcarillo Shadow of the Past Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Minas Mor-go Posts: 1,007	How do I best resist Morgoth? By only attacking when you have a chance at winning. That means killings orcs that venture into your territory, outnumbering your enemy, and keeping an eye out for what Morgoth might do next. Don't recklessly charge Angband with your glittering hosts of elven warriors. Morgoth can just unleash his dragons, balrogs, etc. upon you and wreak havoc upon your army. Fight the small battles away from Angband, when you're on home turf. Try not to go on the offensive, it'll only put you on Morgoth's to-be-destroyed list. Keep a good eye on the borders of your kingdom. Built watchtowers and outposts where necessary. Keep them stocked with gear and food for soldiers on the march. How friendly should I be with Thingol? Fairly friendly. You should send messengers to him bearing gifts and promising friendship. You, with combined armies, can be secure knowing that Morgoth will think twice about swooping down from the north to kill you. There's strength in numbers. How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives? Try not to get involved with the whole oath/doom/kinslaying affair. It only brings trouble. Don’t make any solid alliances with any of them. In fact, the less you deal with them, the better. If you're unlucky enough to find a Silmaril in your hands, hand it over immediately. It's of little worth to yourself, and getting rid of it will deter the next kinslaying. What sort of site would be good for my kingdom? I would choose a site near the mountains, full of rocky, hilly terrain and thick forests. It'd be difficult for an army to maneuver in there. You should also preferably be near one or two major rivers, to act as easily defendable natural borders. Do I go for: A The cave network approach A cave network is hidden underground, provides escape through numerous backdoors and secret passages, easily defended at a few major entrances, not obvious to find, and can still be a beautiful site for your throne. Plus, only you and your people know exactly the size of your caves. Morgoth would have a hard time pinpointing all the exits! What do I do about Dwarves and Men? Treat them with respect. If there are Dwarves in the nearby mountains, I'm sure they'll be glad to help you hew your caves out of the rock. Establishing trade with them is excellent, too. Just be careful about your alliances. An alliance with Thingol won't impress the dwarves in the long run, and vice versa. As for Men, let them roam your kingdom; they're mostly harmless. Being friendly with them won’t hurt, and I'm sure they'd be glad to fight alongside you when orcs attack. Aside from that, you probably don't have much use for them. But don't trust them too much. Let them settle at the kingdom's edges, but not within, lest they be captured by Morgoth and the secret locations of your outposts are given away. *What sort of culture* am I ideally aiming for?** A secluded Elven stronghold, strongly defended and rarely venturing beyond its borders. You should be friendly towards all and fight only when attacked. Your strongest allies are the Sindar, and you are on friendly terms with Men and Dwarves. Your kingdom is rather estranged from the other Noldor, and you tend to stay out of their business.

03-03-2006, 08:49 PM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Who said survival is the goal? How do I best resist Morgoth?Don't think for a second you can possibly "get inside and cause trouble"; that's more quixotic than the seven sons of Feanor! You're Noldoran. Craft armaments. Stay out of the intrigues of political infighting. Don't get attracted by some femme fatale Elf-maiden. Have nothing to do with the children of Hurin. How friendly should I be with Thingol? Don't bother. He doesn't like Noldorans and he's doomed anyway. [b]How far should I co-operate with my valiant, elficidal jewel-seeking relatives?]/b]Steer clear of them. What sort of site would be good for my kingdom?Go to Eregion and beat Celebrimbor to his own game. That way you just might meet up with Galadriel and be in Lorien instead of Celeborn at the end of the Third Age. Till the soil. Husband the beasts. Befriend the Trees. Make friends with every living thing you can, including the Gold-, Silver-, Blue-, Rasp- and whatever else-berrys and Tom Bomba-whatevers littered across the natural lands and rivers. Can't hurt, though it may not help a lot, and sure to provide a lot of native wisdom. What do I do about Dwarves and Men?Trade but that's it. What sort of culture am I ideally aiming for?Noldoran craft married to native Sindarin nature-loving. Sow the seeds of health in the land, the stronger to resist the coming onset of such harrowings as will arise from the Witch King and Sauron.