Alternate "Hiding the Ring" strategies - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tuor in Gondolin · 03-03-2006, 12:48 PM

Quote:

In a more specific example, Deagol found it after so many years under some mud in the Anduin. Whop knows? Pearl divers from Lindon?

Rats. I forgot about that. Although I've thought that a reason (surprisingly missed
by JRRT) for the nazgul fear of going over water was the influence of the
vala there.

But one point above about the Ring's existence gnawing on elves and men's
greediness/desire for power. What if Gandalf
had had Frodo immediately head west to dispose of the ring without
elves, men, bad wizards, etc. (other then Gollum) being aware of it?
Gandalf could borrow a boat from Cirdan without specifying why.

Then get Ulmo to set up a cordon sanitaire.

bilbo_baggins · 03-03-2006, 04:23 PM

But then it would gnaw on Gandalf's mind, who as we already know (by way of his being tempted with the ring by Frodo's offer) is liable to temptation. Would it not grow upon at least him, and because of his solitude in the matter, enhance his suffering? On top of that, he can't die, so he will bear the burden for as long as he can bear it. No reprieve. And Gandalf the Grey at that time would not have been able to stand it. He was weak enough to be destroyed by a Balrog, let alone thousands of years of suffering by the Ring's torment. And he wouldn't be able to leave Middle Earth until Sauron was destroyed, and how could he very well do that with the distraction caused by the Ring?

Ahem.

Also at that point, Saruman could still find things out about the world at large, and many of the elves would probably be able to figure out what had happened, at least to some degree.

And prior to all that, the Ring itself has a physical manifestation of evil. It TRIES to get back to Sauron. It makes things happen in the world around it to move towards its goal. My opinion is that the Ring was docile until moved into Mordor, at which point it struggled with its bearer, attempting to return to its master. Before that, since it was nearing home, it cooperated.

And Essex, the data shows that hardly a 2 to 3 degree difference in the average temperature has been apparent in the past few generations. Given, if it does occur, which I don't believe it will (to the extent the media claims), it would be an exponential growth. But taken with the variable temperature already existing, and the self-correcting climate, it won't make much trouble for a long time. And also, the regressing of coastline? Keep in mind that ice is less dense than liquid water, and so to be accurate on how much the water will rise depends on how much ice is supported above sea level. Icebergs have 90% of their volume below water, and the North Pole is entirely free of terrestrial support. But I quibble. Apologies to anyone who disagrees.

-bilbo

Elu Ancalime · 03-03-2006, 11:50 PM

Well, Gandalf could go int othe West; for the Bears found peace after the Ring. But then, the Rin gwas destroyed completely.
Also, that would leave the War in the hands of...whomever. Denethor I guess...eww.
________
Ford Falcon Xr6 Turbo Specifications

Essex · 03-04-2006, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilbo_baggins

Icebergs have 90% of their volume below water, and the North Pole is entirely free of terrestrial support.

yes but the glaciers on greenland are falling from land into the sea at a pretty drastic pace! on land, into water = sea level rise. But we digress!

Tuor in Gondolin · 03-04-2006, 09:49 AM

(More digression):

[QUOTE] Essex, the data shows that hardly a 2 to 3 degree difference in the average temperature has been apparent in the past few generations. Given, if it does occur, which I don't believe it will (to the extent the media claims), it would be an exponential growth. But taken with the variable temperature already existing, and the self-correcting climate, it won't make much trouble for a long time. [QUOTE]

I'm afraid Mister Bilbo_Baggins (of Bagend?) is in denial. The evidence is
already firighteningly clear of melting ice at both antipods, as is clear concerning
high temperatures in the last decade or so. Had this happened during
the Third Age even the Hill of Himnring would be under water (and perhaps
even the vicinity of Bagend)!

Farael · 03-04-2006, 09:55 AM

Actually, there is one more argument against tossing the ring into the water (and no, it does not include melting layers of ice.. if anyone wants a dissertation on that, PM me as I did a bit of research on it for University last year, I might still have my papers around)

But going back to the ring and the water.... there are Maiar there.
Even if we assume that Ulmo, a valar, won't be tempted because the Ring is a Maiar thing... I can't recall now the name of the Maiar who helped Ulmo in The Silmarillion but I do recall reading that there were more than one. What if one of THEM was tempted? the Ring could sure do that and.... any Maiar with the Ring is another Sauron... ergo, tossing the ring to the sea will be EXACTLY like giving it to Sauron... might as well try something else!

Anguirel · 03-04-2006, 10:00 AM

I must say, I love the idea of the Ring as a water-pollutant accelerating global warming...

Tuor in Gondolin · 03-04-2006, 10:01 AM

Good point by Farael . I had sort of thought of that but didn't
mention it partly because I couldn't recall the name, I think it's Osse.
Doesn't Osse more control streams and rivers, not bigger bodies of
water? Which could mean he'd be a factor if the Ring was on fairly
close to the land islands.

Anguirel · 03-04-2006, 10:14 AM

Osse rages about in the ocean. He it was who Melkor once tempted to cause all sorts of tempestuous trouble. He whipped up many terrible storms before being restrained by his wife Uinen.

I agree; if Osse got the Ring the outlook wouldn't be great...

bilbo_baggins · 03-05-2006, 03:45 PM

What about throwing the Ring into the chasm below Durin's bridge where Gandalf and the Balrog fell? Not even Sauron could venture there, and the Ring couldn't really levitate. Albeit, the Ring would not have been destroyed, but I believe that losing it there would be more long-lasting, and have greater consequences. Unless of course, Sauron takes up spelunking...

. Just a thought...

And Essex, there's nothing new about glaciers falling into oceans. A higher rate than normal of icebergs in the ocean caused the Titanic to sink. And it might suprise you to know that true sea level is not the same world round. The Panama Canal has many water raising and lowering gates, to allow safe passage between the two oceans. And since there is not a heavily populated coast very near Greenland, the effects of an increase in sea level local to Greenland is mediated by the diversity of water levels in the ocean.

And Tuor, I must say that ice melts, ice freezes. As I mentioned with the climate, nothing in the world is static. Even solid ice. Example: ozone layer. The ozone layer fluctuates quite naturally, and fluctuates rather extremely, without being punctured or tearing or whatever you want to call it. And the difference in temperature I mentioned is the total measureable increase known to be caused by man.

bilbo

03-03-2006, 04:23 PM	#2
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	But then it would gnaw on Gandalf's mind, who as we already know (by way of his being tempted with the ring by Frodo's offer) is liable to temptation. Would it not grow upon at least him, and because of his solitude in the matter, enhance his suffering? On top of that, he can't die, so he will bear the burden for as long as he can bear it. No reprieve. And Gandalf the Grey at that time would not have been able to stand it. He was weak enough to be destroyed by a Balrog, let alone thousands of years of suffering by the Ring's torment. And he wouldn't be able to leave Middle Earth until Sauron was destroyed, and how could he very well do that with the distraction caused by the Ring? Ahem. Also at that point, Saruman could still find things out about the world at large, and many of the elves would probably be able to figure out what had happened, at least to some degree. And prior to all that, the Ring itself has a physical manifestation of evil. It TRIES to get back to Sauron. It makes things happen in the world around it to move towards its goal. My opinion is that the Ring was docile until moved into Mordor, at which point it struggled with its bearer, attempting to return to its master. Before that, since it was nearing home, it cooperated. And Essex, the data shows that hardly a 2 to 3 degree difference in the average temperature has been apparent in the past few generations. Given, if it does occur, which I don't believe it will (to the extent the media claims), it would be an exponential growth. But taken with the variable temperature already existing, and the self-correcting climate, it won't make much trouble for a long time. And also, the regressing of coastline? Keep in mind that ice is less dense than liquid water, and so to be accurate on how much the water will rise depends on how much ice is supported above sea level. Icebergs have 90% of their volume below water, and the North Pole is entirely free of terrestrial support. But I quibble. Apologies to anyone who disagrees. -bilbo __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

03-03-2006, 11:50 PM	#3
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	Well, Gandalf could go int othe West; for the Bears found peace after the Ring. But then, the Rin gwas destroyed completely. Also, that would leave the War in the hands of...whomever. Denethor I guess...eww. ________ Ford Falcon Xr6 Turbo Specifications Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:19 PM.

03-04-2006, 09:49 AM	#5
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	(More digression): [QUOTE] Essex, the data shows that hardly a 2 to 3 degree difference in the average temperature has been apparent in the past few generations. Given, if it does occur, which I don't believe it will (to the extent the media claims), it would be an exponential growth. But taken with the variable temperature already existing, and the self-correcting climate, it won't make much trouble for a long time. [QUOTE] I'm afraid Mister Bilbo_Baggins (of Bagend?) is in denial. The evidence is already firighteningly clear of melting ice at both antipods, as is clear concerning high temperatures in the last decade or so. Had this happened during the Third Age even the Hill of Himnring would be under water (and perhaps even the vicinity of Bagend)! __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

03-04-2006, 09:55 AM	#6
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	Actually, there is one more argument against tossing the ring into the water (and no, it does not include melting layers of ice.. if anyone wants a dissertation on that, PM me as I did a bit of research on it for University last year, I might still have my papers around) But going back to the ring and the water.... there are Maiar there. Even if we assume that Ulmo, a valar, won't be tempted because the Ring is a Maiar thing... I can't recall now the name of the Maiar who helped Ulmo in The Silmarillion but I do recall reading that there were more than one. What if one of THEM was tempted? the Ring could sure do that and.... any Maiar with the Ring is another Sauron... ergo, tossing the ring to the sea will be EXACTLY like giving it to Sauron... might as well try something else! __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

03-04-2006, 10:00 AM	#7
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	I must say, I love the idea of the Ring as a water-pollutant accelerating global warming... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

03-04-2006, 10:01 AM	#8
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	Good point by Farael . I had sort of thought of that but didn't mention it partly because I couldn't recall the name, I think it's Osse. Doesn't Osse more control streams and rivers, not bigger bodies of water? Which could mean he'd be a factor if the Ring was on fairly close to the land islands. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

03-04-2006, 10:14 AM	#9
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Osse rages about in the ocean. He it was who Melkor once tempted to cause all sorts of tempestuous trouble. He whipped up many terrible storms before being restrained by his wife Uinen. I agree; if Osse got the Ring the outlook wouldn't be great... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

03-05-2006, 03:45 PM	#10
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	What about throwing the Ring into the chasm below Durin's bridge where Gandalf and the Balrog fell? Not even Sauron could venture there, and the Ring couldn't really levitate. Albeit, the Ring would not have been destroyed, but I believe that losing it there would be more long-lasting, and have greater consequences. Unless of course, Sauron takes up spelunking... . Just a thought... And Essex, there's nothing new about glaciers falling into oceans. A higher rate than normal of icebergs in the ocean caused the Titanic to sink. And it might suprise you to know that true sea level is not the same world round. The Panama Canal has many water raising and lowering gates, to allow safe passage between the two oceans. And since there is not a heavily populated coast very near Greenland, the effects of an increase in sea level local to Greenland is mediated by the diversity of water levels in the ocean. And Tuor, I must say that ice melts, ice freezes. As I mentioned with the climate, nothing in the world is static. Even solid ice. Example: ozone layer. The ozone layer fluctuates quite naturally, and fluctuates rather extremely, without being punctured or tearing or whatever you want to call it. And the difference in temperature I mentioned is the total measureable increase known to be caused by man. bilbo __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."