LotR, an Edwardian Adventure Story?

[Lalwendë]

Those characteristics of the 'Edwardian Adventure Story' could equally apply to the genre of Magic Realism, so I although they are applicable to the former genre, I think they can also be applied to others, and so maybe it is appropriate to discover what they too may be before classifying Tolkien in that genre.

I think where the 'Edwardian' moniker often springs from is that Tolkien's work at face value alone is like those well-known adventure stories, but as we know, it goes much deeper than being a simple adventure. At heart, Tolkien's work gives out some fundamentally modern messages - pessimism that the world will ever be free of war, the abuse of power, how the humblest members of society can play an important part, how Kings must 'earn' their respect, etc.... I think Tolkien also suffers somewhat because some cannot see beyond his religious beliefs and they cannot accept a writer who is religious as 'modern'.

I also think that in contrast to the list the writer has presented us with, Tolkien's work is much less didactic - witness the huge amount of arguments we have on here about characters, motivations and messages. You just could not have that level of argument about say RL Stevenson or Rudyard Kipling.

So, I think Tolkien's work does display some of those characteristics, and so it does share something with the Edwardian adventure story, but it is very different and much, much deeper.

[davem]

From the list given we know that Tolkien had certainly read & been influenced by Haggard's She, & very probably by Chesterton's novels (I'm currently reading the Father Brown stories & I'm strongly reminded of Tolkien's fiction/philosophy:'All things are from God; & above all, reason & imagination & the great gifts of the mind. They are good in themselves; & we must not altogether forget their origin even in their perversion.', etc. He seems to have been familiar with 'Wind in the Willows' too, from comments in OFS.

I think its inevitable that he would have been influenced by the fiction that was around during his formative years, in terms of narrative structure & style. That he transcends it is beyond question, of course.

There have been numerous analyses of the way Tolkien was influenced by ancient myths, but the influence on him of contemporary literature has received less attention. Certainly William Morris was a major influence, as was George MacDonald, & probably Lord Dunsany (in The Gods of Pegana pub 1905, there is a god called Limpang Tung, the god of mirth & melodious minstrels. 'Go out into the starry night, & Limpang Tung will dance with thee, who danced when the gods were young...Or sometimes walking through the dusk with steps unheard by men, in a form unseen by the people, Limpang Tung goeth abroad...' .http://www.harvestfields.ca/ebook/02/056/12.htm. When I first read that I couldn't help but be reminded of Tinfang Warble in the BoLT. Even the names sound similar.

Hopefully in the forthcoming Tolkien Companion & Guide we'll get some info on what Tolkien read

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Those characteristics of the 'Edwardian Adventure Story' could equally apply to the genre of Magic Realism, so I although they are applicable to the former genre, I think they can also be applied to others, and so maybe it is appropriate to discover what they too may be before classifying Tolkien in that genre.

I'm unfamiliar with Magic Realism. Could you expand, please, Lal?

Originally Posted by Lal

I think where the 'Edwardian' moniker often springs from is that Tolkien's work at face value alone is like those well-known adventure stories, but as we know, it goes much deeper than being a simple adventure.

Quite. Lobdell's answer is

I could also point out that Milton's "Epic following Nature" [Paradise Lost, I presume(?)] is very like an adventure story --- perhaps, indeed, it would be well to note this as a corrective to the view that an adventure story is an inferior thing.

If this is so, then Haggard, Stevenson, et. al., are not its best progenitors, I would suppose.

Originally Posted by davem

From the list given we know that Tolkien had certainly read & been influenced by Haggard's She, & very probably by Chesterton's novels.

Yes. Lobdell says this:

Indeed, in a telephone conversation with the American journalist Henry Resnick, Tolkien said this of Haggard's She: "I suppose as a boy She interested me as much as anything --- like the Greek shard of Amyntas, which was the kind of machine by which everything got moving."

Then Lobdell points out similarities between the death of Ayesha (the She in the story) and Saruman: they both get smaller and smaller, their skin becoming old, old, as if haggard with many many years.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

No time now for an extended reply, but this musical analogy is intriguing. If you view Tolkien as the Bach, who would be the Mozart? Perhaps Wilson et al could be Salieri?

Hmmmm...... by Bach I refer to Tolkien as the last and greatest, if one accepts the Edwardian adventure mode premise, wrapping up an entire period of literature as did Bach with the Baroque era of music.

Mozart? A man with incredible talent, cut off in his prime by bad luck, composing his greatest music in the midst of great suffering, who showed every sign of breaking out into the Romantic movement ahead of Beethoven had he been given the years to do it. If the Baroque is comparable to the Edwardian adventure story, the Roccocco/Classical period was a turn away from that which is clearly directly comparable to For Whom the Bell Tolls, The Great Gatsby, The Grapes of Wrath, etc. So who from literature got his or her start in that mode, and would have broken out into Romantic myth making had s/he been given the chance? I haven't a clue. Orwell? Golding?

Salieri? Someone who was very successful in his time, but forgotten soon after? How would I know? S/he's forgotten.

[Lalwendë]

I'm unfamiliar with Magic Realism. Could you expand, please, Lal?

Well, at one level, it's the fantasy that it is OK for the literati to like. But being serious, it's fiction where the boundaries of reality and fantasy are blurred, it is often associated with South American writers (though by no means is exclusive to them) and plays about with the readers' perceptions of time, gender, history etc. It is sometimes political, satirical, and often strays far into the genres of fantasy and sci-fi. The main difference between magic realism and edwardian adventure stories is that in the former, there are few clear boundaries between right and wrong.

The most famous writer would probably be Gabriel Garcia Marquez; Isabel Allende's House of the Spirits, a weird mix of politics, ghosts and girls born with green hair is one of my favourite books. There is also Angela Carter who explored fairy stories in much of her fiction (the film Company of Wolves is based on one of her short stories), taking a feminist perspective and creating incredible magic One of her characters may or may not have had wings - I wonder if fans debate the issue in the manner of the balrog wing debate. Salman Rushdie is sometimes classed in the genre but it has a really wide scope - sometimes Neil Gaiman is included, and I'd say Susanna Clarke's novel also strays into the territory.

It is not secondary world fantasy but nor is it reality. Nature, history, enchantment, cruelty, ghosts, demons, eccentrics, almost anything goes as long as it adds to the sense of 'magic'.