Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-07-2006, 08:24 PM

Well, I suppose that I ought to open up the debate on hidden messages.

My own view is that nothing in this regard should be ruled out. For Wolves, deception and bluff are the name fo the game, and for innocents and Gifteds, hidden messages may also have their uses. Past games have seen Gifted hints dropped through the use of particular words, word combinations and icons. I see little difference between this and innocents using coded messages (acrostics, anagrams and the like) to declare their innocence.

Given the nature of the game, coded messages can, in any event, no more be relied on than an open declaration of innocence (or Gifted-ness). So I am not sure how they affect the game any more than the standard use of hidden messages.

The other aspect of the debate, I suppose, is whether players should use ploys which only those who have played with them in previous games will recognise (such as Nilp and I exchanging anagrams). Again, I see little difference here than using ones' knowledge of peoples' playing styles etc from previous games to make deductions.

But I think that the most difficult issue here is where, if we start ruling out particular ways of communicating or certain ruse, the line should be drawn. Each game would require a plethora of rules as to what may be done and what may not and there would no doubt be matters arising which were not covered by those rules or which fell into grey areas.

So, my own view is that, subject to those rules which have already been established as standard (no PMs except where specifically allowed, no discussing the game outside the game threads, strict honesty in the admin thread etc), the game does not require further regulation.

Clearly, it will be up to the mod of each game to set the rules as they see fit, but I nevertheless think it useful, given the issue that arose in WWXVIII, for those who have views on these questions to air them here, before the next game starts.

Boromir88 · 03-07-2006, 08:32 PM

Well if we are opening the forum to that...

At first I was feeling the same as lmp, I think my initial reaction was that it would take away the enjoyment of the game from being able to spot a wolf from an innocent villager. I mean I was thinking what would the game turn out to be like if the villagers all sent out coded messages of their innocence, then to me it would make it less enjoyable, because it would take away from the guessing and more or less randomness.

Then after a little discussion with morm and some time I realized:

1) You have to spot the anagram. Even if I went out looking for them I wouldn't be able to find them, I'm never good at coded/secret messaged, I'm far more blatant if you can't tell. Like hit you in the face blatant

.

2) Then you have to believe it and it's not a wolf masking itself so to say.

So when I thought about it, it didn't take away from the nature of the game, the nature of guessing. Because, you have to believe it and I would hold wolfish voting behaviour, or other signs of lycanthropy over any secret message (if I could find one).

Aiwendil · 03-07-2006, 08:35 PM

I'm (as usual, it seems) in agreement with The Saucepan Man. Trying to regulate such hints would be a very messy business. For one thing, to enforce it, the moderator would have to search carefully through each post for any sign of anagrams, acrostics, or the like.

I also think that the game that's just finished provides adequate evidence of the fallibility of such methods. Both SpM and I lied via anagram.

Meneltarmacil · 03-07-2006, 08:56 PM

I also agree that hidden messages have their uses. It complies with the established rules that you can say you're the Seer/Hunter/Ordo/etc. under the condition that no PMs or things that absolutely prove you're that person can be revealed. As for how one reveals oneself, that isn't discussed.

Also, this does not give one side a clear advantage over the other, since the Wolves can also pick up on cryptic hints and use them to identify potential threats.

Shelob · 03-07-2006, 08:57 PM

Speaking as an all-powerful mod who witnessed this I must say that I could easily see both sides of the secret message issue...however so far as that went it took everything in my power not to post a general "Are you people CRAZY? Saucepan Man's a WOLF, don't trust him!" Once I got over that reaction I must say I didn't see any need for limiting the use of similar messages. It just didn't seem practical because I could clearly see how they were not a one sided deal.

True, the messages stated that a player was innocent. However the player wasn't. If Sauce hadn't told Nilp he was innocent through the message he may have been more serious suspected. The messages work both ways, they could harm wolves if all the innocents were going around saying "Look at me, I'm not a wolf!" but then again it could just as easily be a message which saves a wolf.

Given that the secret messages are basically just an evolution of the point of the game it seems to me that the bigger, perhaps deeper, issue here is the evolution of this game and it's players. Nilpaurion and Saucepan Man had used similar secret messages before, they could recognize them when they saw them and could then use the messages to influence their play. Others could not. When the WereWolf Junior games started many "senior" players stressed that the games should not be considered "junior" and "senior" but rather simply two sides of the same thing. Certainly no one would argue that all new players must play x-number of WWJ games before moving onto the full Tol-in-Gaurhoth version, just as any experienced player is not restricted from WWJ games.

If we wish to consider the use or restriction of secret messages I think we need to consider the "junior" and "senior" issue again. Ignoring the obvious/not-obvious natures of various secret messages (I caught acrostics all but instatnly but didn't catch anagrams until they were pointed out, simply because acrostics are easier for me and, so far as I'm concerned, more "obvious"), anyway, ignoring that the only way a player will catch the messages is if they're familiar with the previous use of similar messages. Littleman Poet wasn't expecting messages to be passed in such a way because he hadn't seen something like it before and so he was indignent when he learned of it, but would anyone say that he must be restricted to WWJ games because he hasn't got enough expierience? I should hope not.

I will not say that that is the only way to look at this, I will not even say that it is, in truth, even anywhere near the most important way. I simply bring it up because to me if one will argue that "secret messages" are against the spirit of the game one must really question what will and will not be allowed. A game in which no one but gifteds can leave hints will leave the gifteds glaringly obvious. To avoid that a game in which no one can leave hints defeats the purpose, a player would have to spend more time editing their posts to ensure that there is not phrasing or accidental suggestion that they are innocent and wouldn't be able to really focus on finding wolves. And what would you have to work form in such a case anyway, a voting record? Any player who has played at least one game will argue that a voting record tells you very little on it's own, to find wolves one must look not only at the record but also at what everyone has said, if all people can say is "Shelob's vote looks suspicious" you are still working from only the voting record, it's just been dressed up a bit.

I still wish to hear from Littleman Poet, it may be I have misinterrpreted his reasons for not wanting the hinting and if that's the case it may be my argument is not relevent to the issue at hand. However I felt it should be said, what's at stake here isn't "was that cheating?" it's how we wish to see the game played in the future. Go look at the first game, it varies hugely from how games now are played but I don't think anyone would claim that it is wrong. The game has just evolved since then, and it evolves with each new game, each combination of players, and the conclusions we draw from each new Death.

I hope that it either makes sense or helps (preferably both, in reality), but even if it doesn't...

littlemanpoet · 03-07-2006, 09:22 PM

Initially I had felt betrayed..... but that was based on the assumption that Lhuna, Nilp, & SPM were all innocents, holding secrets from a fellow innocent (me

). More fool me, it never occurred to me until I "poofed", that just maybe SPM was a werewolf after all, like I had hunched at the very beginning. Once I accepted that possibility, my view on "codes" changed. As SPM has said, they are no more a sure sign of honesty than anything else written in posts. Therefore, it's a moot issue. So I agree. Let 'em stand. Any innocents who get caught out by werewolves (who already know who's innocent anyway) have merely played into the werewolves' hands, and so much the worse for them.

A side issue for me had been, "why on earth would some innocents want to keep secrets from other innocents?" Here's my point: some of us, when innocents, ain't that great at reading codes, anagrams, and what-not. Any innocents who convey crucial information through codes, run the risk of some fellow innocents not getting it. But that doesn't mean there ought to be a rule against it. Either you're just playing around and it doesn't really matter, or you're running the risk of cutting off your nose to spite your face. So code away all you want, gifteds and innocents .... this particular player is not likely to figure it out when he's innocent, and will probably be clued in by fellow werewolves when he's a werewolf. So have at it.

mormegil · 03-07-2006, 09:48 PM

I'm glad to see that most of us are in agreement on this issue. As I noted in the game I actually didn't believe Nilp based on his anagram and I should actually have seen SpM playing off that a lot to gain Nilp's confidence, and it worked. But I don't see that a 'senior' or 'junior' player issue is of any consequence. In partiuclar these anagrams were there for everyone to see and decipher, if you had the patience. Speaking of which I didn't decipher all of them and would like to know what they all said. I picked up on the majority but not all.

Next game? Perhaps...depends on timing and some other issues. I don't want to continually take up a spot if there are other. I think I've been in the most games overall

...if not me than SpM

Farael · 03-07-2006, 10:32 PM

On Secret codes:

Even though I was slightly bummed out at the fact that I am not good for anagrams, I don't mind them as long as they are out there for everyone to see.

On the coming up game:

Nilp, you know you can already count on me for it.... as for occupation, even though I'm tempted of actually being the town's Nilp, I wouldn't want to seem to be doing a parody of your antics.... thus, I shall be the town's "Escaped mental asylum internee who suffers a cronic suicidal tendency and conspiracy theories" (the second part allowing me to go after Aiwendil again if he decides to play

)

Looking forward to being able to satisfy my WW addiction some more.

Lhunardawen · 03-07-2006, 10:50 PM

SpW and Aiwendil...you liars!

It's odd, but I'm inclined to believe that those who used anagrams and such to express their innocence are actually telling the truth. Most likely it's because any sane person wouldn't go to such lengths to tell a lie, but apparently making an anagram isn't such a hard thing to do for our two lycans above.

So I guess I should consider myself warned from next game on.

Nilp, come on...I'm burning with excitement! Tell us what you have planned!

mormegil · 03-08-2006, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mormegil

Next game? Perhaps...depends on timing and some other issues. I don't want to continually take up a spot if there are other. I think I've been in the most games overall

...if not me than SpM

I didn't seem to make the list Nilp made which is okay. I'm willing to fill in if you have a vacant slot but I'm fine with sitting too...as Spawn pointed out I'm too great an addict and should give it a break, though Kath will be catching me.

Nilpaurion Felagund · 03-08-2006, 11:21 PM

Vzv, there are three immediate death rules you need to remember (forgot to post them yesterday . . . )

~ Except during DAY 1, an unexcused absence means immediate elimination. By 'excused' I mean previously mentioned in this thread. If you go absent for a reason unforeseeable (meaning you didn't post a reason prior to the absence), make sure it's a really good reason and the Mod God will decide your fate.

~ Three no-votes = death. No excuses.

~ Three DAYs of absence, excused or not = death. C'mon, Three DAYs, that's like half the game!

As for the players:

Female

1. dancing spawn of ungoliant - laundress
2. Kath
3. Lhunardawen
4. Caranlondien
5. tar-ancalime - witch
6. Cailín
7. Celuien - psychiatrist
8. Naria - midwife
9. Valier
10. Lalaith - rich young widow
11. Thinlómien

Male

11. Garin
12. Formendacil
13. littlemanpoet
14. Glirdan
15. Farael - escaped mental asylum internee who suffers a chronic suicidal tendency and conspiracy theories
16. Anguirel - wood-madman
17. Eomer
18. Gurthang - arrowsmith
19. the guy who be short - Nilp fan, stalker and impersonator and fisherman
20. Eonwe
21. SamwiseGamgee (I just had to fit him in!

)

Times poll:

(NOTE: I'm moving the second option half an hour later--on Tuesdays and Fridays by 8am GMT I'm just leaving class.)

5:30 am - tar-an, Gurthang, daga'y, Naria, Samwise

8:30 am - Lhuna, Farael, Cailín, Ang, Form, Lalaith

The others need to chip in their choices.

Post-traumatic possum: I would like to ask: Does a mod need be invisible?

03-07-2006, 08:24 PM	#1
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Hidden/coded messages Well, I suppose that I ought to open up the debate on hidden messages. My own view is that nothing in this regard should be ruled out. For Wolves, deception and bluff are the name fo the game, and for innocents and Gifteds, hidden messages may also have their uses. Past games have seen Gifted hints dropped through the use of particular words, word combinations and icons. I see little difference between this and innocents using coded messages (acrostics, anagrams and the like) to declare their innocence. Given the nature of the game, coded messages can, in any event, no more be relied on than an open declaration of innocence (or Gifted-ness). So I am not sure how they affect the game any more than the standard use of hidden messages. The other aspect of the debate, I suppose, is whether players should use ploys which only those who have played with them in previous games will recognise (such as Nilp and I exchanging anagrams). Again, I see little difference here than using ones' knowledge of peoples' playing styles etc from previous games to make deductions. But I think that the most difficult issue here is where, if we start ruling out particular ways of communicating or certain ruse, the line should be drawn. Each game would require a plethora of rules as to what may be done and what may not and there would no doubt be matters arising which were not covered by those rules or which fell into grey areas. So, my own view is that, subject to those rules which have already been established as standard (no PMs except where specifically allowed, no discussing the game outside the game threads, strict honesty in the admin thread etc), the game does not require further regulation. Clearly, it will be up to the mod of each game to set the rules as they see fit, but I nevertheless think it useful, given the issue that arose in WWXVIII, for those who have views on these questions to air them here, before the next game starts. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-07-2006, 08:32 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Well if we are opening the forum to that... At first I was feeling the same as lmp, I think my initial reaction was that it would take away the enjoyment of the game from being able to spot a wolf from an innocent villager. I mean I was thinking what would the game turn out to be like if the villagers all sent out coded messages of their innocence, then to me it would make it less enjoyable, because it would take away from the guessing and more or less randomness. Then after a little discussion with morm and some time I realized: 1) You have to spot the anagram. Even if I went out looking for them I wouldn't be able to find them, I'm never good at coded/secret messaged, I'm far more blatant if you can't tell. Like hit you in the face blatant . 2) Then you have to believe it and it's not a wolf masking itself so to say. So when I thought about it, it didn't take away from the nature of the game, the nature of guessing. Because, you have to believe it and I would hold wolfish voting behaviour, or other signs of lycanthropy over any secret message (if I could find one). __________________ Fenris Penguin

03-07-2006, 08:56 PM	#4
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	I also agree that hidden messages have their uses. It complies with the established rules that you can say you're the Seer/Hunter/Ordo/etc. under the condition that no PMs or things that absolutely prove you're that person can be revealed. As for how one reveals oneself, that isn't discussed. Also, this does not give one side a clear advantage over the other, since the Wolves can also pick up on cryptic hints and use them to identify potential threats. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

03-07-2006, 08:57 PM	#5
Shelob Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: At the abysmal Abyss Mall. Posts: 276	Speaking as an all-powerful mod who witnessed this I must say that I could easily see both sides of the secret message issue...however so far as that went it took everything in my power not to post a general "Are you people CRAZY? Saucepan Man's a WOLF, don't trust him!" Once I got over that reaction I must say I didn't see any need for limiting the use of similar messages. It just didn't seem practical because I could clearly see how they were not a one sided deal. True, the messages stated that a player was innocent. However the player wasn't. If Sauce hadn't told Nilp he was innocent through the message he may have been more serious suspected. The messages work both ways, they could harm wolves if all the innocents were going around saying "Look at me, I'm not a wolf!" but then again it could just as easily be a message which saves a wolf. Given that the secret messages are basically just an evolution of the point of the game it seems to me that the bigger, perhaps deeper, issue here is the evolution of this game and it's players. Nilpaurion and Saucepan Man had used similar secret messages before, they could recognize them when they saw them and could then use the messages to influence their play. Others could not. When the WereWolf Junior games started many "senior" players stressed that the games should not be considered "junior" and "senior" but rather simply two sides of the same thing. Certainly no one would argue that all new players must play x-number of WWJ games before moving onto the full Tol-in-Gaurhoth version, just as any experienced player is not restricted from WWJ games. If we wish to consider the use or restriction of secret messages I think we need to consider the "junior" and "senior" issue again. Ignoring the obvious/not-obvious natures of various secret messages (I caught acrostics all but instatnly but didn't catch anagrams until they were pointed out, simply because acrostics are easier for me and, so far as I'm concerned, more "obvious"), anyway, ignoring that the only way a player will catch the messages is if they're familiar with the previous use of similar messages. Littleman Poet wasn't expecting messages to be passed in such a way because he hadn't seen something like it before and so he was indignent when he learned of it, but would anyone say that he must be restricted to WWJ games because he hasn't got enough expierience? I should hope not. I will not say that that is the only way to look at this, I will not even say that it is, in truth, even anywhere near the most important way. I simply bring it up because to me if one will argue that "secret messages" are against the spirit of the game one must really question what will and will not be allowed. A game in which no one but gifteds can leave hints will leave the gifteds glaringly obvious. To avoid that a game in which no one can leave hints defeats the purpose, a player would have to spend more time editing their posts to ensure that there is not phrasing or accidental suggestion that they are innocent and wouldn't be able to really focus on finding wolves. And what would you have to work form in such a case anyway, a voting record? Any player who has played at least one game will argue that a voting record tells you very little on it's own, to find wolves one must look not only at the record but also at what everyone has said, if all people can say is "Shelob's vote looks suspicious" you are still working from only the voting record, it's just been dressed up a bit. I still wish to hear from Littleman Poet, it may be I have misinterrpreted his reasons for not wanting the hinting and if that's the case it may be my argument is not relevent to the issue at hand. However I felt it should be said, what's at stake here isn't "was that cheating?" it's how we wish to see the game played in the future. Go look at the first game, it varies hugely from how games now are played but I don't think anyone would claim that it is wrong. The game has just evolved since then, and it evolves with each new game, each combination of players, and the conclusions we draw from each new Death. I hope that it either makes sense or helps (preferably both, in reality), but even if it doesn't... __________________ A signature always reveals a man's character - and sometimes even his name ~Evan Esar. Pan for Everyone!

03-07-2006, 09:22 PM	#6
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	on codes Initially I had felt betrayed..... but that was based on the assumption that Lhuna, Nilp, & SPM were all innocents, holding secrets from a fellow innocent (me ). More fool me, it never occurred to me until I "poofed", that just maybe SPM was a werewolf after all, like I had hunched at the very beginning. Once I accepted that possibility, my view on "codes" changed. As SPM has said, they are no more a sure sign of honesty than anything else written in posts. Therefore, it's a moot issue. So I agree. Let 'em stand. Any innocents who get caught out by werewolves (who already know who's innocent anyway) have merely played into the werewolves' hands, and so much the worse for them. A side issue for me had been, "why on earth would some innocents want to keep secrets from other innocents?" Here's my point: some of us, when innocents, ain't that great at reading codes, anagrams, and what-not. Any innocents who convey crucial information through codes, run the risk of some fellow innocents not getting it. But that doesn't mean there ought to be a rule against it. Either you're just playing around and it doesn't really matter, or you're running the risk of cutting off your nose to spite your face. So code away all you want, gifteds and innocents .... this particular player is not likely to figure it out when he's innocent, and will probably be clued in by fellow werewolves when he's a werewolf. So have at it. Last edited by littlemanpoet; 03-07-2006 at 09:32 PM.

03-07-2006, 08:35 PM	#3
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I'm (as usual, it seems) in agreement with The Saucepan Man. Trying to regulate such hints would be a very messy business. For one thing, to enforce it, the moderator would have to search carefully through each post for any sign of anagrams, acrostics, or the like. I also think that the game that's just finished provides adequate evidence of the fallibility of such methods. Both SpM and I lied via anagram.

03-07-2006, 09:48 PM	#7
mormegil Maundering Mage Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,651	I'm glad to see that most of us are in agreement on this issue. As I noted in the game I actually didn't believe Nilp based on his anagram and I should actually have seen SpM playing off that a lot to gain Nilp's confidence, and it worked. But I don't see that a 'senior' or 'junior' player issue is of any consequence. In partiuclar these anagrams were there for everyone to see and decipher, if you had the patience. Speaking of which I didn't decipher all of them and would like to know what they all said. I picked up on the majority but not all. Next game? Perhaps...depends on timing and some other issues. I don't want to continually take up a spot if there are other. I think I've been in the most games overall ...if not me than SpM __________________ “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

03-07-2006, 10:32 PM	#8
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	On Secret codes: Even though I was slightly bummed out at the fact that I am not good for anagrams, I don't mind them as long as they are out there for everyone to see. On the coming up game: Nilp, you know you can already count on me for it.... as for occupation, even though I'm tempted of actually being the town's Nilp, I wouldn't want to seem to be doing a parody of your antics.... thus, I shall be the town's "Escaped mental asylum internee who suffers a cronic suicidal tendency and conspiracy theories" (the second part allowing me to go after Aiwendil again if he decides to play ) Looking forward to being able to satisfy my WW addiction some more. __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

03-07-2006, 10:50 PM	#9
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	SpW and Aiwendil...you liars! It's odd, but I'm inclined to believe that those who used anagrams and such to express their innocence are actually telling the truth. Most likely it's because any sane person wouldn't go to such lengths to tell a lie, but apparently making an anagram isn't such a hard thing to do for our two lycans above. So I guess I should consider myself warned from next game on. Nilp, come on...I'm burning with excitement! Tell us what you have planned!

03-08-2006, 11:21 PM	#11
Nilpaurion Felagund Scion of The Faithful Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines] Posts: 5,312	Okay then. Vzv, there are three immediate death rules you need to remember (forgot to post them yesterday . . . ) ~ Except during DAY 1, an unexcused absence means immediate elimination. By 'excused' I mean previously mentioned in this thread. If you go absent for a reason unforeseeable (meaning you didn't post a reason prior to the absence), make sure it's a really good reason and the Mod God will decide your fate. ~ Three no-votes = death. No excuses. ~ Three DAYs of absence, excused or not = death. C'mon, Three DAYs, that's like half the game! As for the players: Female 1. dancing spawn of ungoliant - laundress 2. Kath 3. Lhunardawen 4. Caranlondien 5. tar-ancalime - witch 6. Cailín 7. Celuien - psychiatrist 8. Naria - midwife 9. Valier 10. Lalaith - rich young widow 11. Thinlómien Male 11. Garin 12. Formendacil 13. littlemanpoet 14. Glirdan 15. Farael - escaped mental asylum internee who suffers a chronic suicidal tendency and conspiracy theories 16. Anguirel - wood-madman 17. Eomer 18. Gurthang - arrowsmith 19. the guy who be short - Nilp fan, stalker and impersonator and fisherman 20. Eonwe 21. SamwiseGamgee (I just had to fit him in! ) Times poll: (NOTE: I'm moving the second option half an hour later--on Tuesdays and Fridays by 8am GMT I'm just leaving class.) 5:30 am - tar-an, Gurthang, daga'y, Naria, Samwise 8:30 am - Lhuna, Farael, Cailín, Ang, Form, Lalaith The others need to chip in their choices. Post-traumatic possum: I would like to ask: Does a mod need be invisible? __________________ フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good... Last edited by Nilpaurion Felagund; 03-09-2006 at 05:00 AM.