Gollum and Eagles: Deux ex machina?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Still, there are distinctions that can be made and have been since at least the first century of the modern era; namely, between body, soul, and spirit. The three cannot in reality be disentangled from each other save by death (an ultimately unnatural event according to my beliefs). However, we're capable of distinguishing from them by their character. Body is matter which I really need not explain any more than that, I hope. Soul is mind, will, emotions, and all that which is part and parcel of the psyche. Spirit is that part of reality that is hardest to define, describe, explain, et cetera.

This distinction is to be found from all over the world, and it is seems to be present also in the very old shamanistic cultures too. So let's speak about 10 000 + (maybe more than 20 000) years instead of the first century? Some people have attached the idea to the curios fact of dreaming during the sleep (remember f.ex. Australian aboriginals' notion of a Dreamtime as a basic metaphysical reality etc.). So there is the physical me here and now, my thoughts and ideas and mental presence in the world (soul) and then this "spirit" that goes to its wanderings when I sleep, that kind of is a part of me, and then isn't.

But the age of a belief certainly is not any proof of it being right...

[Glaurung]

Still babbling about Gollum... Of course it sounds stupid that Gollum would be a deux ex machina, but doesn't it sound weird that such a story as LotR ends when a skinny little creature just slips into the Mount Doom and that's it?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

This distinction is to be found from all over the world, and it is seems to be present also in the very old shamanistic cultures too. So let's speak about 10 000 + (maybe more than 20 000) years instead of the first century? Some people have attached the idea to the curios fact of dreaming during the sleep (remember f.ex. Australian aboriginals' notion of a Dreamtime as a basic metaphysical reality etc.). So there is the physical me here and now, my thoughts and ideas and mental presence in the world (soul) and then this "spirit" that goes to its wanderings when I sleep, that kind of is a part of me, and then isn't.

I guess I was referring to the knowledge of such distinctions within western civilization, with which we are most familiar and have the most history. But yes, you are quite right about the shamanistic traditions. We North Americans find the indigenous spirituality of native Americans to be quite a strikingly powerful and beautiful tradition when we take it on its own terms. Personally, I always find native American references to "the Great Spirit" to be breathtakingly refreshing. But that is an aside.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But the age of a belief certainly is not any proof of it being right...

Nor its opposite.

[davem]

Of course, the Music drives the world in a certain specific direction. Because of this is it not possible for any individual to 'divert' the course of destiny to any real degree. It is possible that (within M-e at least) what has been called a Deus ex Machina is simply the force of the Music exerting a kind of 'gravitational pull' on individuals/events.

The Ring is 'fated' or 'destined' to go into the Fire, so Gollum is 'pulled' in along with it by 'natural law' (well, the Ring is 'destined' to go into the Fire because Sauron is not destined to win, & the only way to ensure his defeat is to destroy the Ring. Hence, Sauron's defeat & the destruction of the Ring will happen, it just has to be brought about somehow, by someone within the world, because the Music works out within the world. The Quest is one way in which this could have been brought about - & probably the one that would result in the least suffering, or maybe the one that would produce the 'best results, for all concerned)

This 'force' is inexorable, but does not take away individual freedom completely. Individuals can effect change for good or ill, but only within the parameters set by Aunilindale.

If I'm correct then Deus ex Machina events would be necessary, 'miracles' as such would be the universe being pulled back into its predetermined course, almost as if the universe spontaneously produces 'antibodies' to fight a disease.

[littlemanpoet]

The determinism you present, dear sir, just doesn't seem in keeping with my reading of LotR. May I suggest that trying to get an 'inexorable force' and 'individual freedom' to square with each other in any logical way is an exercise in futility. Best to leave the paradox in all of its realities in the balance that we find it in real life as well as in really good fantasy. But hey, if you like exercises in futility, have at it!

[alatar]

Interesting POV, davem, but somehow the universe that you posit seems contradictory. If an event is fated, which I can accept in ME, then D E M would not be necessary. If the Ring is doomed to go into the Fire, despite everyone's best efforts for or against, then why would divine intervention be required for the Ring to hit the flames?

Unless we assume that the original song, sung by the Divine, is the machine that stomps along, plowing through both mountain and plain, achieving the straight and narrow way desired by the creator, that is.

My interpretation of D E M is where things will go against the plan, down into chaos, unless the god intervenes and sets the world back on the god's path. Then there are more minor interventions where the god tweaks.

A cool tweak is seen in The Clash of the Titans (1981) where Zeus sets the fallen Perseus figurine back on his feet when the hero needs a little boost on his way to fight the Kraken and save Princess Andromeda.

[Legolas]

It is incorrect and ironic to consider the eagles' rescuing episode to be a case of deus ex machina (as presented). To dismiss it as a literary device present only to 'save the story' is to ignore the nature of Tolkien's fictional history.

It is not a literary device deus ex machina, but a literal deus ex machina - a literal act of God. The eagles are not a symbolical representation of God (or anything else) - they literally are sent from God (or actually his regent, in this case). That was the entire point.

Frodo, the Fellowship, and all of 'good' Middle-earth could not win it alone - yet they continued in faith, and in the end, a higher power carried them the rest of the way. (This is a concept taught in Christianity as well.)

Letter No. 183

In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour. The Eldar and the Númenóreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination.

The definition presented in the first post says that a deus ex machina is "any resolution to a story which does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic." The eagles' appearance is not against the story's internal logic. It actually follows the internal logic of the story, and is at the very essence of the story's focus (addressed above). In addition to the Eagles' appearance in The Lord of the Rings, the army of the Valar save the day in the War of Wrath; the Eagles save Maedhros with Fingon; the Eagles save Húrin and Huor, bringing them safely to Gondolinl; the Eagles save Beren and Luthien, bringing them safely to Doriath; and the Eagles overturn the Battle of Five Armies.

"Of the Return of the Noldor," The Silmarillion:

Maedhros therefore, being in anguish without hope, begged Fingon to shoot him with his bow; and Fingon strung an arrow, and bent his bow. And seeing no better hope he cried to Manwë, saying: 'O King to whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft, and recall some pity for the Noldor in their need!'
His prayer was answered swiftly. For Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and to whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves. And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwë. Now, even as Fingon bent his bow, there flew down from the high airs Thorondor, King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been, whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms; and staying Fingon's hand he took him up, and bore him to the face of the rock where Maedhros hung. But Fingon could not release the hell-wrought bond upon his wrist, nor sever it, nor draw it from the stone. Again therefore in his pain Maedhros begged that he would slay him; but Fingon cut off his hand above the wrist, and Thorondor bore them back to Mithrim.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Legolas

It is incorrect and ironic to consider the eagles' rescuing episode to be a case of deus ex machina (as presented). To dismiss it as a literary device present only to 'save the story' is to ignore the nature of Tolkien's fictional history.

It is not a literary device deus ex machina, but a literal deus ex machina - a literal act of God. The eagles are not a symbolical representation of God (or anything else) - they literally are sent from God (or actually his regent, in this case). That was the entire point.

Umm, don't you mean "act of Eru" and "sent by Eru"? Or well, that person who is responsible for the music but who isn't directly named, who is conspicuous by his absence from LotR?