Survivor: The Second Age

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And just what is all this ruckus about?

Okay, I know what all this ruckus is about...

It seems to me that there's a certain "poor loser's syndrome" going on. Well, I can sympathise... For what it's worth, I'd just as soon have saved Gil-galad rather than Elrond, but I didn't.

I can't say that I am at all in agreement with that rather loaded assessment of my motives. I can and do accept loses when I believe them to be fair ones. So, since you have disregarded my points about the vote tally as irrelevant and emotional, and didn't even deign to explain why you miscounted the votes to begin with (giving Elrond 6 before deductions when he had 7) then I really don't feel in the mood to play anymore. The game should be fun, it stopped being that for me. Therefore I won't stick around, since you might find me rather bitter and no one needs a bad mood hanging about casting a pall. I hope those who continue to play enjoy the remainder of the game.

[the phantom]

The amount of whining that I see makes it quite clear that you guys are really really taking this game seriously. Curious, seeing as you are quick to point out that this is the "Mirth" forum.

You all should be goofing around and being over-dramatic like me. It's more fun than being a stick in the mud.

As far as the complaining about the way the votes were counted, allow me to demonstrate the way I would've counted the votes for Elrond and Oropher.

Now don't try to argue with me about any of my judgments. Don't tell me "Well, I wouldn't have counted it that way!" That doesn't matter.

I'm just trying to show you the thought process that could lead to the results we got. In other words, showing that Formy probably had certain things in mind for counting votes and didn't just decide to count some and not others on a whim.

morm votes for Elrond:

Agent Elrond must go. He's not that wise yet, he's not funny, he's has limited personality. He's just not working out and it's time to let you go.

As you can see, morm said nothing that is justifiable within Tolkien's literature and didn't even attempt to justify it.

- - NO VOTE

Spawn votes for Elrond:
Her argument was that Elrond's refuge, Rivendell, only thrived because of Vilya. Now, why this is a reason to cast out Elrond I don't know (and I fought her quite nicely with quotes, I think ), but I imagine her vote got counted because she at least used some Encyclopedia of Arda quotes. Then again, the Encyclopedia of Arda online wasn't written by Tolkien, so it's not a guarantee.

+ + PROBABLY A VOTE FOR ELROND

Diamond18 votes for Elrond:
She voted for Elrond because she thought I was being mean. So quite obviously-

- - NO VOTE

(btw, I wasn't being mean to anyone, Diamond, I was simply being overly fanatic for the purpose of entertainment, people who've seen me in werewolf games are very familiar with my "hysterical phantom routine", as I believe Kuru called it, and generally find it amusing- I'm sure Spawn knows good and well that I don't honestly think she is stupid )

Eonwe votes for Oropher:

Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?

This vote counts. Why? Because Eonwe is clearly demonstrating a very Tolkien based argument for Oropher's eviction- Oropher was not mentioned much in Tolkien's books.

Had Elrond been running up against someone other than Oropher, he probably would've been voted off, but Oropher is extremely easy to cast a Tolkien-based vote for by virtue of the simple fact that Tolkien didn't say much about him.

This is why it was so easy to include the Oropher votes in the final tally. At least that is my theory. Please do your best to understand this.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

TORE votes for Elrond:

Is where I'm leaning at the moment...there are good points for & against him of course & I might change my mind but at the moment I'm leaning towards Spawn's course of action

Do you see any reason given for why Elrond should be gone? Didn't think so.

- - NO VOTE

Celuien votes for Oropher:
First, she quotes Eonwe-

Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?

And then she answers-

Can't think of a thing. How dull...

+ +Oropher

For contributing little, if anything, to the history of Middle-earth.

This vote counts the same way Eonwe's does.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

Elu Ancalime votes for Elrond:

I swear he's a sissy.

Hmm... For some reason I don't think Formy counted this one.

- - NO VOTE

Kuru votes for Elrond:
He at least points out something from Middle-Earth- the fact that Elrond was the herald of Gil-galad. However, the conclusion that he draws from this is that Elrond "didn't do a thing" in the battle. He certainly doesn't give anything to support that, but perhaps his vote gets counted because he gave exact information from Tolkien's book (that Elrond was Gil's herald)?

+ + PROBABLY A VOTE FOR ELROND

Gil votes for Elrond:

I expect your vote for Anarion in the future Kuru

I don't think that qualifies.

- - NO VOTE

the phantom votes for Oropher:

There's a reason a lot of people don't know the name Oropher where as everyone knows Elrond. Oropher isn't worthy of recognition, and thus is unworthy of staying in this game.

Here I am, using the same line of thinking as Eonwe and Celuien. I am using the fact that Tolkien did not write much about Oropher to prove that he was not a character worthy of standing among the greats. If he was as great as Elrond, Tolkien would've written more about him.

Not only that, but Formy might've been persuaded to count my vote simply because of my many quality Tolkien based defenses of Elrond. I was obviously trying as hard as anyone to keep the game Tolkien based, so it makes sense to count my vote.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

lord votes for Oropher:

I haven't seen any decent defensible textual reason why Elrond should leave right now, particularly before Oropher, who most of you probably had to look up to find out about.

I agree with those before me that there is a reason Oropher is not well known- he didn't do anything worthy of keeping him alive in this game.

Once again, we see the argument that Oropher is an obscure character within the legendarium and thus does not belong with the big names.

+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER

Firefoot votes for Oropher:

He's pretty much useless, and Elrond deserves to stick around to the end more than he does. I don't know that Elrond should win, but Oropher definitely should not.

Firefoot calls Oropher "useless", which is likely referencing his lack of deeds and general no-name status, but since it isn't clear I won't count this vote.

- - NO VOTE

And so the final tally is...
Elrond: 2
Oropoher: 4

There! Now that you have seen a vote count demonstrated, perhaps that will put an end to these charges of vote "rigging".

For those of you with this attitude- "My person didn't win so I'm not playing any more"...

You need to smack yourself on the head and tell yourself "It's just a game."

Then you need to smack yourself again, and tell yourself "As Phantom demonstrated, I suppose it is actually possible that Form's final vote tally is somewhat justifiable."

After that, smack yourself once again and say "To be safe I'm going to come up with real reasons to vote for characters from now on." (I know I'm going to be trying harder just in case)

And, no doubt, a few of you think I'm only saying all this because my candidate didn't get voted off. If that's what you think- whatever.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by a phantom

... this is the "Mirth" forum.

Precisely.

Originally Posted by a phantom

For those of you with this attitude- "My person didn't win so I'm not playing any more"...

To quote you:

Originally Posted by a phantom

If that's what you think- whatever.

[Elu Ancalime]

Not to critisize Formendacil, but one of the great things (and at the same time stupid, dont forget) about democracy is that, in a republic, [ok just for example the USA ] a voter can vote for anyone without any restriction, even Bubba who runs the gas station. So technically i should be able to say ++Elu with nothing else and it stands. But hey, its Formen's game, so w/e....its logical, but something in stone beforehand might have been..helpful.

I think Formy is really tring to make this game 'correct,' but a degree of 'fun' might be lost. It is Mirth, and it is fun to make cases like Elronds a sissy and we dont want sissys, but that comes down to what Kuru and Phantom said days ago: Charactars vs. vendettas, and theres a balence to be found, because like I said, if its ONLY charactars, Isildur, Elendil or Sauron should win by default, or only
vendettas, DOOM could carry Joe the Hobbit to victory 'just because.'

Then you need to smack yourself again, and tell yourself "As Phantom demonstrated, I suppose it is actually possible that Form's final vote tally is somewhat justifiable."

I agree with you there; I was annoyed for about 2 seconds when I saw Formy went Florida Style, but whatever. I will still do my best to be as irrationally logical as possible, and cause phantom to shake his head at me.

So, Elu Ancalime, if you keep your vote for Elrond you are an absolutely huge hypocrite.

But now I disagree; I wasnt saying Elrond wasnt, my vote was to defend Oropher and Cirdan. Elrond was warm and nice to those that he met met and knew, but Oropher risked his luxeries to send a missionary to educate the Silvan/Avari.
________
BUY EASY VAPE VAPORIZER

[lord of dor-lomin]

I say we get rid of Treebeard. He didn't do anything of note in the Second Age.

I think the ents might be better off without him. Maybe a younger, more "hasty" ent would take charge, like Quickbeam.

+ + Treebeard

[the phantom]

Ooo, Eomer isn't going to like this, but I simply must, since I've been given an easy opportunity to bump him off.

+ + Fangorn (Treebeard)

I hate people who take to long to get to the point, and so I am very much anti-ent to begin with. And then consider, how much good do ents really do? Except for once every few thousand years they don't do anything of value. And they aren't even decent enough chaps to travel with their wives, but instead they just let them wander off to meet their fate alone.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Well, Phantom, the mod has just extended the voting time, so we failed in our last second attempt to take out Treebeard.

Rats.

[Formendacil]

Due to a certain lack of voting for characters in the game, the Day's deadline will be postponed to something in the neighbourhood of 24 hours.

Now, to restate certain things that have been overlooked:

1. I have admitted that I was probably wrong to hide my Tolkien-based criteria for voting, and to just present the tallies.

Evidence:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Okay, my criteria being in the dark is bit mysterious, and I can understand the criticism there. Very well, in the future if I stick to the Tolkien-based voting system, I'll analyse each and every vote in the open.

2. In the future, if I choose to continue to follow the Tolkien-based route, I shall make each and every vote's significance within this system open and public.

Evidence: see last quote.

3. My original reason for keeping the criteria secret was not to rig the game, but to avoid offending anyone who's vote might not have been counted- and to keep game discussion on which characters should have been voted off, NOT on whether or not I was correct in allowing/disallowing certain votes. My decision here may have been wrong, if so, I have already admitted that- and said I will change.

Evidence:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The only reason I was keeping it in the dark was to avoid offending people's sensibilities as to whether or not I was being partial and counting votes to please myself.

So, if there are offended feelings in the future because I don't think your votes are reasoned, then I apologise in advance, but you brought it on yourselves.

4. Tolkien-based criteria.

Okay, this is a bit of a new topic, and the points I'm going to make haven't been made specifically by me.

To begin, the requirement to have a rationale for one's votes is not an idea that I came up with. This goes back to Anguirel's game, and was an official rule of Glirdan's. It was also a rule that I was not initially fond of, during those games- possibly because their enforcement of it was inconsistent. However, keeping in mind that this IS a Tolkien forum, and keeping in mind the idea that posts with some meat to them make for a better argument (and thus Survivor thread) than simple ++ My Candidate posts, I began to reconsider my opinions on it over the course of the games.

When I started my own game, I did not originally see a need to include the rule. I assumed that, more-or-less, most voters would include SOME rationale in their voting- and, if the rationale was to be rational, I assumed that it would Tolkien-related.

On about Day 3 (and research back on this thread will clear up exactly when it was), one of the voters from a previous game, possibly Anguirel (though I don't wish to name names in case I'm wrong), was irked at a lack of apparent reason behind someone's vote, and the issue came up in my mind.

That night/day, tallying up the votes, I too was irked at the apparent lack of reason behind some of the votes- and as the two "Tolkien-based" tallyings I have done thus far will show, quite a few votes are easily discounted on this point.

Although I held to the majority decision (a majority decision that I seem to recall disliking for some reason), I did post that I would be possibly changing the rules to require a Tolkien rationale for the votes.

The way I initially did this was done in such a way that I wasn't GUARANTEEING that I would only count Tolkien-based votes- but I might, so you'd better include a reason to be safe. My intention, at that time, was not to force you all to do more work, but to try and stimulate you all by non-forceful means into livening up debate.

However, as the voting progressed over the following days, the overall percentage of "unreasoned" votes didn't really change, and it possibly got worse. A few players asked me (SPM right here on the game thread), if I could be expected to start discounting votes. I replied "No" in all cases, but continued to mention it as a possibility for the future, not necessarily to be acted on.

Well, yesterday I acted on it. I gave plenty of warning, and I don't regret that I did.

Now, I do most sincerely and heartily regret the whole kaffuffle that it has caused. I apologise for keeping my decisions on which votes are eligible secret- clearly, I did not think it through as completely as I ought to have. I will admit to being quite pleased that it was Oropher that got the noose, and not Elrond, but I completely and absolutely deny the charges that I rigged the result. I tallied each vote that had a Tolkien rationale (in my human opinion, mind you). It was still your votes that I counted- and if the anti-Oropher camp had the majority in the keep-Tolkien-a-part-of-it spirit voting scheme that I had set up, then it was their majority that won the votes.

Two more Tolkien-reasoned (even if rather warped, distorted, or parodied in its logic) and Elrond would be gone, and not Oropher.

Again, I truly detest this whole situation that has come up. I regret that my actions made it so. But what has happened, has happened, and as Anguirel has pointed out, reversing my actions will only make things worse. If you want to "remedy" things, then I recommend that you all vote for Elrond today- and use something Tolkien wrote to back you up.

~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~

P.S. To everybody who has supported me, misguided or not, my thanks. To know that I haven't made completely irrational, stupid, and egotistic decisions is appreciated.