LotR, an Edwardian Adventure Story?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I think you both are "hitting good targets". Which makes it all the more intriguing that Tolkien would use (at least aspects of) a mode the use of which had come and gone; the use of which, but not the popularity.

I suppose it depends upon which aspects of that 'mode' we think Tolkien used, and whether they were exclusive to it? The whole idea of a quest or adventure isn't unique to Edwardian adventure stories, in fact it is common to many eras. I often think LotR has a lot of similarities to Huckleberry Finn, in that it is not just a journey, but a journey on which a lot of lessons are inadvertently learned, not just for characters but for the reader too.

Hmm, like most of us, I'm sure Tolkien enjoyed a good narrative, and there certainly is evidence that he enjoyed a lot of the adventure stories, along with the fantasy and sci-fi of his day. But Tolkien had a wider range of reading and that is reflected too, if nor more so when the reader really gets into the text.

I can see why a critic casting a superficial (supercilious?) eye over a story like Tolkien's might assume it is just an adventure, as many fans read it on that level too, so maybe their idea that it is an 'Edwardian adventure story' does indeed have an effect on the reception of LotR by some. But it doesn't mean, to me at least, that it is a book of that genre.

Has that mode come and gone though? Aren't the Harry Potter books just grand old adventures on the surface too?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Has that mode come and gone though? Aren't the Harry Potter books just grand old adventures on the surface too?

Hah! So ya wanna open up that little can of creepy crawlies?

Is there a "boarding school" tradition of literature in England? I think there is.

It seems only with Book VI does Harry finally embark on the "Quest Proper". At least in LotR the Quest is begun "proper" at the beginning of Book 2 (of 6). Does this perhaps indicate the relative points at which the respective authors (JRRT & JKR) departed from the safety nets of their literary forebears?

[Mister Underhill]

The first few HP books, at least, strike me as having more of a mystery structure than anything else.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Hah! So ya wanna open up that little can of creepy crawlies?

Is there a "boarding school" tradition of literature in England? I think there is.

It seems only with Book VI does Harry finally embark on the "Quest Proper". At least in LotR the Quest is begun "proper" at the beginning of Book 2 (of 6). Does this perhaps indicate the relative points at which the respective authors (JRRT & JKR) departed from the safety nets of their literary forebears?

There most definitely is a tradition of Boarding School stories! There were Enid Blyton's St Clare's and Mallory Towers series (where the slightly priggish yet bad tempered Darrell always won out over the whinging Gwendolyn), the Chalet School series, and you always find plenty of amusing and much older boarding school novels in second hand bookshops. They have certain features they all seem to share - the terrifying French teacher, the midnight feast, the younger child winning out over the bully...

JK Rowling follows in a great (and very popular) tradition, even bringing in elements of that British kids' TV classic, Grange Hill, in the form of a wider range of races and classes of child, and more 'modern' behaviour. I'm sure someone will have written about this somewhere, as there are so many interesting parallels to be drawn.

I often think she may have begun with the idea of where she wanted to go, but began to write cautiously, aiming to gain her audience by following in the 'school story' tradition. As the books took off, she may have been able to gain more and more space for developing the depth of the tales - I notice that around Book 3 (Azkhaban) they seem to take on a new depth and darkness, and that cannot simply be due to Harry's getting older.

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

The first few HP books, at least, strike me as having more of a mystery structure than anything else.

Good point. I'd not really considered this, but these books also have strong elements of mystery stories. I think they have a lot more 'teeth' than the Famous Five or Secret Seven, but especially in the first two books, the plotting takes that kind of structure, with a 'reveal' at the end. I think this is still there in the later books, but this is slightly more 'buried' and there is certainly less of the 'Scooby Doo, Pesky Kids' style ending of the second book!

Comparing Tolkien to Rowling, here are two particular areas in which they diverge as writers - good grist to the mill for those who wish to defend Rowling from accusations of plagiarism of Tolkien's work! Tolkien did not have the 'safety' nor the enclosure (the start and end of school years and the confines of the school itself) provided by following a 'school story' - his work was exceptionally open-ended and explored a wider world rather than diving into the minutiae of an enclosed space like Hogwarts. Tolkien also did not have the formal structure of a mystery story - the essential mystery of the story was exposed at the beginning as we are told what the Ring was about. Maybe this is why the event at the Crack of Doom was so much more shocking when it came?

[littlemanpoet]

It seems to me that Rowling was clever and wordly wise (at least the popular lit world) to go the safe route of school story and mystery. Tolkien's open-ended structure still seems unwanted. Even the big fantasy series of the current era seem to follow a safe pattern rather than just go where the story takes the author. Hmmm..... ghosts of a certain Kalessin rant? What was that called? Ah yes: Are There Any Valid Criticisms? That was a real tour de force! Might be worth taking a peek at, those of us who have been around only in the last two years....

[davem]

I suppose that the main difference between LotR & the 'Edwardian adventure story' (as opposed to the Edwardian novel) is that LotR has survived & the EAS in the main has not. We all have an idea of what constitures an EAS, but how many of us have actually read one? Probably not many of us, for the simple reason that not many of them are still around. However, some have survived, but how they have survived is interesting.

I suppose that what is meant by an EAS is a kind of Boy's Own Adventure, where the hero is defending the Empire against its enemies, or winning fame through exploring the unknown & winning fame & treasure in 'Darkest Africa' (King Solomon's Mines, She), India (Kipling's Kim) or in wartime (Biggles). Of course, this kind of story could be found in the post-Edwardian period, but it wasn't limited to novels. Many boy's comics even into the sixties followed the same pattern (The Eagle for example).

So, we could say that the EAS survived way beyond the Edwardian period, but (almost as happened to Fairy stories), it was 'relegated to the nursery'. Both Fairy stories & the EAS came to be seen as fit only for children. Now, Tolkien, almost single-handedly, revived the Fairy story as adult literature, so one can't help wondering whether someone will manage to do the same thing for the EAS. Or maybe they have

This makes me think about Hollywood's output. Perhaps that's what George Lucas has done with Star Wars & the Indiana Jones movies - how much diffference is there between Lucas' stories & the EAS? Probably not much in fact. Have we really moved on from the EAS - did it really die? I can't help but feel it just changed its clothes & its location. That said, I don't think it survived in Tolkien's Legendarium. Tolkien maybe 'tricked' us, though, by presenting us with a story, in LotR, that (at least at the start) makes us think we are about to read an EAS (or a Boy's Own story). By the time we realise that's not at all what we're getting most of us are hooked.

Perhaps this accounts for the critics of LotR, the majority of whom don't get past the first few chapters. They read the EAS part of the story, decide they don't like it (or don't approve of it) & leave it there - hence their dismissal of it.

The interesting question is why so many of us do get drawn in to the EAS of the early chapters of LotR? When we dismiss the EAS as 'primitive' & claim we have gone beyond it in our tastes & desires, are we being entirely honest?

Having said that, I go back to my original point - 99.9% of EAS's have not survived, & most of us would probably now find them unreadable. Yet, as with Fairy Stories, it seems that there was a core of meaning & worth in the genre. Perhaps its the element of stepping out into the 'Unknown' ('Darkest' Africa' was as alien & strange as Faerie to most Edwardians). How much difference is there between Alan Quartermain going to find King Solomon's Mines, Indiana Jones seeking the Lost Ark & King Arthur seeking the Otherworld Cauldron in Preiddeu Annwn?

[JennyHallu]

I don't think I agree with you about the modern death of the classic adventure story. While the tales are rarely read in their original forms, I think because modern expectations of what a child might be capable of reading have plummetted, think of all the modern interpretations of these classic stories?

Think of Treasure Island, of Tom Sawyer (American, yes, but the principle holds).

The problem with the EAS is that the majority of today's children don't look to books for story-telling, they look to television, movies, and even video games (All the Link games I think could be classed as a Boy's Own story fairly easily.)

And for some reason the books and tales you were mentioning made me think of the assistant pig-keeper from Prwdain (I think, it's been a long time), the hero of the tales by Lloyd Alexander. Are they classed as Edwardian Adventure stories?

[littlemanpoet]

Jenny, I don't know how Lloyd Alexander's stories are classed except that they are placed in the Youth section of the local library.

davem, I'm intrigued by the insights you have put together. Much good stuff there.

Originally Posted by davem

The interesting question is why so many of us do get drawn in to the EAS of the early chapters of LotR? When we dismiss the EAS as 'primitive' & claim we have gone beyond it in our tastes & desires, are we being entirely honest?

Second question first: I've never made the claim, so I can't really answer it. First question: I think it's got to do with Hobbits. Tolkien already had a successful children's story in The Hobbit. That, I think, is the draw into LotR that keeps those of us, who love Hobbits, long enough to get to the even better, richer, deeper stuff.