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03-17-2006, 01:53 AM | #41 |
Dead Serious
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You know, LMP, one could almost categorize you as Catholic, with your desire to rank things by power in a hierarchy.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fun idea and certainly generates a lot of fun debate. I just wonder if you're not coming across as too serious about it! After all, Middle-Earth isn't Dungeons & Dragons!
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03-17-2006, 07:28 AM | #42 | ||
Shady She-Penguin
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Elempí, I wouldn't put Elrond and Galadriel over Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey was after all the one who dared to go to Dol Guldur and came back alive. Also he started the Erebor quest and the Ring quest. He defeated a balrog. I think Galadriel thought of him as more powerful than herself (or wiser, at least) and a proud noldo wouldn't do that without a reason. On what basis do you put Elrond and Galadriel over him?
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03-17-2006, 07:50 AM | #43 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Im wondering exactly what game LMP is trying to work out. I recently have played Risk ME edition, which I def recommend
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03-17-2006, 08:07 AM | #44 | |
Cryptic Aura
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the member who flagged us
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03-17-2006, 08:28 AM | #45 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Ilike the word like
To Littlemanpoet, you know the old chesnut about the Balrogs wings ie LIKE two vast wings, well in the chapter The Battle of The Pelennor Fields Tolkien says: and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls. Is Tolkien saying half-trolls exist or is he likening them to an idea of what a half-troll would look like, either way the creature would be formidable. The problem of the list, is that when listing Men or Elves, there are sub-catergories, not all men are equal.
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03-17-2006, 12:17 PM | #46 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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you forgot Nazgul
Actually i like the list but yes i agree sub categories should be in there and unless its in the tales of tom bombadil(that song or whatnot) i think goldberry should be a little lower and maybe hobbits above spiders(but thats almost too close to say)
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03-17-2006, 12:46 PM | #47 |
A Mere Boggart
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Certainly Tom Bombadil should be above The Ring as it has no effect on him at all. This would then place Tom above Gandalf and Galadriel, and I don't know if everyone would be OK with that, but I think he would be appropriately placed above them. Gandalf and Galadriel were deeply affected by the Ring, and had to struggle to resist it, but to Tom it was just a trinket.
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03-18-2006, 09:34 AM | #48 |
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The Half-orcs
Just to try and clear up a small point made by Littlemanpoet, that the half-orcs were Uruk-hai. In Robert Fosters Complete Guide to Middle-Earth he writes thus:
Half-orcs Servents of Saruman, used by him as spies and soldiers. They were seemingly the product of a cross between Men and Orcs. Although tall as Men, they were sallow-faced and squint-eyed. The Chief's Men were half-orcs. The half-orcs (the term is not used in The Lord of the Rings) were definitely not Uruk-hai. Fosters guide is considered one of the better ones, even by Christopher Tolkien. In Tylers The Tolkien Companion under the Uruk-hai section he states thus: Saruman himself attempted further genetic experiments with the race of 'Great Orcs'- with singularly unhappy results: creatures known as 'Half-orcs' which were said (by Sarumans enemies) to be the result of cross-breeding between Uruk-hai and certain degenerate Men in his service. It may well be that The Uruks were a cross between Men and Orcs, but they were created by Sauron, not Saruman as it appears in the films. The Uruks first appeared about TA 2475.
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03-18-2006, 11:20 AM | #49 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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What we're dealing with is the question of the precise power of the Ring & how it works. It plays on the individual's desires, so a being without desire would be impervious to its allure. This also means that Tom could never use the Ring (Galadriel tells Frodo that he could only use the Ring if he trained his will to the domination of others. Tom has no desire to do that (from what we know of him)). Certainly he is not powerful enough to destroy it, & this being the case can we really say he is more powerful than it? It could not dominate him, he could not destroy it. Actually, he could well be less powerful than it in a real sense. After all, we seem to be judging a person's/thing's 'power' by its effect on the world/other people. |
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03-18-2006, 08:30 PM | #50 | |||||||
Itinerant Songster
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And thanks for the solid research on Uruk-hai versus half-orcs. I just learned something new about LotR. Quote:
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I'm moving Hobbits above Spiders. Think of the incident in the Hobbit. How many Spiders were there? What if there were as many Hobbits as Spiders ... on neutral ground? That's the trouble though: the Spiders would probably win in Mirkwood, and the Hobbits would win in the Shire. However, that's only in battle. The Hobbit culture is definitely superior to that of Spiders. Hobbits up. But then why not above Goblins? Because Goblins are more ruthless, though probably more cowardly. Well. Cowardliness is a worse disease than ruthlessness overcomes, so I think I'll put Hobbits above Goblins too. Eru Morgoth Manwë Varda Yavanna Ulmo Aulë Mandos Tulkas Lorien Vana Nessa Earendil Ancalagon Ungoliant Glaurung Smaug Sauron Eonwë Osse Uinen The Ring Gandalf the White Witch King of Angmar Saruman Fëanor Finrod Felagund Melian Gandalf the Grey Galadriel Thingol Elrond Glorfindel Balrogs Nazgúl Arwen Undómiel Húrin Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological) Círdan Blue Istari Thorondor Eagles Huan Aragorn son of Arathorn Radagast Tom Bombadil Ents Trolls Shelob Beleg Frodo Baggins Eldar: Vanyar Eldar: Noldor Eldar: Teleri Legolas Eldar: Sindar Faramir Humans: line of Elros Gimli the Dwarf Half-trolls Eldar: Laiquendi Eldar: Nandor Eldar: Avari Wargs Dwarves Goldberry Denethor Boromir Humans: Gondorians Humans: Umbarians Humans: Rohirrim Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.) Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.) Half-orcs Uruk hai Orcs Meriadoc Brandybuck Samwise Gamgee Peregrin Took Bullroarer Took Gollum Hobbits Goblins Spiders |
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03-18-2006, 09:01 PM | #51 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Let me know if this makes sense: Can we really count Tom Bombadill if we dont know who/what he is? Obviously, sine the whole [ring cant control him, but he cant control ring] thing adds some debate, and for all we know, (this is a reference to Battle for Middle-Earth 2) he could have a "Sonic Singing" power that would blow a humanoid Sauron away. Like RL, you cant really define a power of something unless you know enough about what it has done, and what it pre-hinted.
Also, about spiders-hobbits:Bilbo was as we know an excdptional hobbit. Think of what might have happened if you gave the Ring and Sting (dont forget an empty stomach!) to each hobbit and give them a spider of Mirkwood, a la gladiator style. Tooks might be able to beat some, but not all. ________ Toyota carina Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:30 PM. |
03-18-2006, 09:43 PM | #52 |
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I guess my answer, Elu, is that all we can go on is what is provided. We don't know all about all kinds of characters. Maybe Arwen inherited a gene from Melian (through Luthien) that gives her the ability to put a girdle of protection around the entirety of Gondor! But we only know what the books tell us, and that will have to suffice.
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03-19-2006, 12:13 AM | #53 | |||
A Northern Soul
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The Valaquenta lists the Valar in "due order" which I interpret as 'order of power.' The list splits males and females, so we are left to look elsewhere to decide how the lists look when merged.
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Lórien would need to be moved up, between Mandos and Tulkas. (He is currently below Tulkas in your list.) I would also support Ulmo moving above Yavanna and Varda. Ulmo, the third Valar described, is given two full paragraphs in the Valaquenta, immediately following Manwe (undoubtedly the most powerful of the 14) and Varda - no one else is given that much attention. I do not think Varda is necessarily greater in power than Ulmo. She is mentioned before Ulmo with Manwe, but I think this would be the case anyway, as to include her in Manwe's description since they are together. She is certainly powerful since Melkor "feared her more than all others whom Eru made," but I think this is because of her predisposition against him: Quote:
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03-19-2006, 04:37 AM | #54 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I am really enjoying this post, what a minefield, thanks Littlemanpoet. Here are a few things to think about.
The Druedain Luthien (who defeated Sauron in a battle of power, and had power over Morgoth) The Mearas (Shadowfax, Nahar) The point on Half-orcs, I would put them in this order The Uruk-hai (Great Orcs) The Orcs (Goblins) The Half-orcs (ie:The squint-eyed southener in Bree and The Chiefs Men).
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03-19-2006, 07:45 AM | #55 |
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Thanks for an excellent contribution, Legolas. I've placed the Vala based on your suggestions, but on some you made no suggestions. Those Vala are placed more or less without objective reasoning to back them up, so please offer suggestions anyone.
narfforc, thanks for the thoughts. I just cannot bring myself to put half-breeds with humans above "pure-bred" orcs because orcs are inferior to humans. Therefore, the half-breed must come between. I'm thinking about dispensing with my distinction between Orc and Goblin, as they seem to be the same thing. However, it seems to me that there are mountain orcs that are of the smallest and most cowardly variety, as compared to Mordor orcs, such as Grishnakh, who is not cowardly and really quite dangerous. Granted, Grishnakh seems to be an unusually canny orc, so he deserves inclusion. Still, I think Mordor orcs are a bit above mountain orcs. So I guess I'll stick with my distinction. Or are Mordor orcs always Uruk-hai? I'm thinking not... any help? Eru Morgoth Manwë Ulmo Varda Yavanna Aulë Oromë Mandos Lorien Nienna Tulkas Estë Vairë Vana Nessa Earendil Ancalagon Ungoliant Glaurung Smaug Sauron Eonwë Osse Uinen The Ring Gandalf the White Witch King of Angmar Saruman the White Fëanor Finrod Felagund Melian Gandalf the Grey Lúthien Galadriel Thingol Elrond Glorfindel Balrogs Nazgúl Arwen Undómiel Húrin Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological) Círdan Blue Istari Thorondor Eagles Huan Mearas Aragorn son of Arathorn Radagast Tom Bombadil Ents Trolls Shelob Beleg Frodo Baggins Eldar: Vanyar Eldar: Noldor Eldar: Teleri Legolas Eldar: Sindar Faramir Humans: line of Elros Gimli the Dwarf Half-trolls Eldar: Laiquendi Eldar: Nandor Eldar: Avari Wargs Dwarves Goldberry Denethor Boromir Humans: Gondorians Humans: Umbarians Humans: the Druedain Humans: Rohirrim Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.) Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.) Meriadoc Brandybuck Samwise Gamgee Peregrin Took Bullroarer Took Saruman divested Grishnakh Half-orcs Uruk hai Orcs Gollum Hobbits Goblins Spiders Last edited by littlemanpoet; 03-20-2006 at 01:38 PM. |
03-20-2006, 03:10 AM | #56 |
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The Pukel-men
I think that the Woses (Druedain) should come down the list of humans, maybe at the end, as they are quite primitive. Also you have still not put The Mearas (Nahar and Shadowfax) in.
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03-20-2006, 01:37 PM | #57 | |
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Where would you put the Mearas? Basically, they're horses that were bred in Valinor by the Eldar, and the understand human speech with an intelligence beyond typical animal. Seems to me, that puts them up there with Huan? |
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03-20-2006, 01:57 PM | #58 |
Blithe Spirit
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I don't understand what Melian is doing so far below the other Maia, particularly as no-one, not even Morgoth, could get through her girdle...and IMO Feanor's too high up.
Are you talking Feanor with or without Sils? Sauron with or without ring?
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03-20-2006, 09:29 PM | #59 | |
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I had Feanor lower, but people pointed out that he took on a whole squadron of Balrogs! Do you think the Silmarils actually enhanced his effect upon Arda? As for Sauron, I suppose we could distinguish between the two, as I've done with Gandalf the Grey & White. Where would you place the two types of Dark Lord? |
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03-21-2006, 03:36 AM | #60 |
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Does "power" include self-control? If so, Feanor should definately be lower. Turin too, probably.
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03-22-2006, 05:01 AM | #61 | |
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03-23-2006, 08:30 AM | #62 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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I do appreciate your statement regarding Catholicism, spirituality, and hierarchies. "I too am a man under authority, and I say to this soldier...." etc. But that (then) brings it down to the hierarchy of individuals, does it not? Bilbo over spiders, Ted Sandyman under spiders. And what if some of the spiders are cowardly, and some are braver than others? Could even Bilbo have defeated Shelob-- with Sting but without the phial of Galadriel? How much of Hobbits-Defeating-Spiders depends on Elvish artistry and contributions? How well would Bilbo have done with a normal dagger instead of Sting? Does it matter? Personally, I'd get flummoxed (as you can see) just having to sort two or three characters. I'm rather impressed that you've gotten this far. Please continue having fun & sorting the list. I'm going to go compare your ranking for Shelob and Aragorn....
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03-23-2006, 08:36 AM | #63 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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ps. Where IS Bilbo? ... And Sam defeated Shelob. Why's he so low on the list...? I guess I don't yet understand the logic. Cheers, lmp, and enjoy! EDIT post-script: Okay. I think I see what bugs me. "Bur Frodo was not your average hobbit." The good stories are about the exceptions to the rules. But they are operating within the averages, aren't they? Bilbo (in Mirkwood) outsmarts numerous average spiders. (Bilbo is exceptional.) Gollum outsmarts lots of (average) orcses. (Gollum is exceptional.) It seems to me you need -- scratch that, rudely put, sorry, rephrase. If I was tackling this, I would need (at least) two lists: First, a general hierarchy of races. Then hierarchies of the individuals within races. And I guess then, hierarchies of individuals that exceeded where their races were. Or something like that. (cue Underhill's Rock/scissors/paper analogy here; brilliant point IMO.) Anyway: to me it makes more sense to --- graph this in at least 2-D, race-wise --- distinguish between "average" and "exceptional" individuals ....must go. Wish I could linger.
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 03-23-2006 at 08:49 AM. |
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03-24-2006, 03:40 AM | #64 | |
Wight
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I think Sam didn't defeat Shelob. It's more that she unwillingly commited hara-kiri.
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03-24-2006, 04:19 AM | #65 | |
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It was only when the Silmaril passed to Dior that the sons of Feanor rose up again. I'd always thought that it was power of Luthien + power of Sil = unassailable. But maybe it was just the power of Luthien herself.
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03-24-2006, 06:49 AM | #66 |
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Maybe it was because Luthien was so beloved by the elves, that the Sons Of Feanor feared more the backlash, and were willing to wait their time, than be utterly vanquished by those who would be outraged by any assault.
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03-24-2006, 11:06 PM | #67 | |||||||
Itinerant Songster
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Sorry for responding to this after so much passage of time. Much has been distracting me of late.
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The sons of Feanor may have feared a backlash, but I think that merely political motivation pales by comparison to the spiritual power of love in Luthien, kindled to greater heights by the light of the holy trees in the silmaril. |
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03-24-2006, 11:10 PM | #68 |
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Guiding Principle: Context is the determiner.
Eru Ilúvatar Melkor the Morgoth (primordial) Manwë Súlimo Ulmo Varda Elbereth Gilthoniel Yavanna Kementári Aulë Oromë Mandos Lorien Nienna Tulkas Astaldo Morgoth (earthbound) Estë Vairë Vana Nessa Arien Tilion Ancalagon Ungoliant Sauron Eonwë Uinen Ossë Glaurung Melian Olórin Curumo Aiwendil Pallando Alatar Salmar Eärendil amongst the stars Thorondor Gwaihir Landroval Eagles of Manwë Hawks of Manwë Smaug Gandalf the White Saruman the White Lúthien Tinúviel Fëanor Galadriel Fingolfin Fingon Finrod Felagund Gandalf the Grey Gothmog the Balrog Balrogs Elwë Thingol Finwë Olwë Finarfin Eärwen of Alqualondë Turgon Maedhros Idril Celebrindal Angrod Orodreth Finduilas Aegnor Glorfindel Celebrian Elrond Celeborn Huan Carcharoth Witch King of Angmar Khamul, 2nd Nazgúl Nazgúl Tuor Húrin Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological) Beren Eärendil in Middle Earth Elwing Gil-galad Círdan Elros Aredhel Maglor Amrod Amras Eöl Maeglin Celegorm Curufin Caranthir Elladan Elrohir Arwen Undómiel Aragorn son of Arathorn Radagast the Brown Blue Istari Shelob Tom Bombadil Treebeard Ents Mearas Trolls Beleg Frodo Baggins (the nine fingered) Eldar: Vanyar Eldar: Noldor Eldar: Teleri Legolas Eldar: Sindar Faramir Humans: line of Elros Dúrin I Azaghàl Gimli the Dwarf Beorn Dain Ironfoot Balin lord of Moria Thorin Oakenshield Half-trolls Eldar: Laiquendi Eldar: Nandor Eldar: Avari Dwarves Goldberry Denethor Eärnur Boromir Bard Humans: Gondorians Humans: Umbarians Humans: Rohirrim Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.) Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.) Bilbo Baggins Meriadoc Brandybuck Samwise Gamgee Peregrin Took Bullroarer Took Hobbits Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgúl Mouth of Sauron Saruman divested Ravens Crows Wargs Ted Sandyman Gríma Wormtongue Sméagol Half-orcs Uruk hai Orcs Gollum Spiders Last edited by littlemanpoet; 04-12-2006 at 07:48 PM. |
03-24-2006, 11:33 PM | #69 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Can't we all just agree that things are based on situation?
Looking at that list, I'd put Luthien above Gandalf. Putting all of Angband to sleep is enough to qualify her for a higher position. Also, since Tolkien set the situation at Minas Tirith to appear as a clash of equals, I would put Gandalf the White and the Witch-King side by side. This is a list, yes, but due to no conflict at the gates of Minas Tirith and the way the passage was written, the best choice in my opinion would be to list them as equals. In the end, however, I would agree that the situation is too important a factor. The only characters that can safely be put on the list are Eru and Tom Bombadil. Even that is unsure.
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03-25-2006, 10:05 AM | #70 |
Cryptic Aura
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And Nienna, who influenced Olorin so much? Just think of her lessons of pity and the role pity plays in LotR.
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03-25-2006, 10:57 AM | #71 |
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How right Bethberry, how influential and important was Nienna in the outcome of the fate of Arda. I have thought much on Olorin and his wanderings to her house, and how her teachings of endurance of hope, shine through Gandalf into Middle-Earth. Surely pity it is which saved the day, and did that voice of pity in Frodo's head, have it's origin in Nienna.
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03-25-2006, 02:33 PM | #72 | |
A Northern Soul
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What moved Varda and Yavanna back on top of Ulmo? And the other rankings of the males [Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas]? The order prior to my post was restored in this last list.
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. Last edited by Legolas; 03-25-2006 at 02:38 PM. |
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03-25-2006, 08:26 PM | #73 |
Itinerant Songster
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Oops! I fear that I used the wrong base list for my update. Which is why I need to have just one list. From now on I'll link to that one list. Sorry. I'll go fix.
The Updated List Last edited by littlemanpoet; 03-25-2006 at 08:35 PM. |
03-25-2006, 09:14 PM | #74 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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As I can see the whole of this as a nice exercise, I would really like to hear the point of this all. In the tradition of scholastics from the middle-ages, it is downright understandable to search for the "order of creation", where every being had its place in the order of things, created by the supreme craftsman. But would Tolkien had such a thomistic view of the world? (He was catholic, to be sure, but anyway.) And how can you compare individuals with "races" or "subcultures", and put them in the same line?
The Nienna -affair seems to me the most telling one: Gandalf is the hero of the story, but he could not be, what he is, without Nienna. But what about Tom Bombadill? He (and Goldberry) are not seduced by the ring - neither are they able to use it (?) - but still controlling it, seeing through it and being able to understand it. They are powers beoynd the Middle-Earth proper. Like the ents, they are somewhat immune to these petty skirmishes of men versus the evil. I can see the LotR and Silm. as stories about the Valar, the Maiar, the elves (elevated mankind), men and the evil. These last ones seem to be the focus. The others are important, but not in the same league with the earlier ones. The Maiar are the tools of the Vala, and that's simple. But the Ents, Tom & Goldberry, the dwarves (due to their birth)? They seem to have some kind of justification of their own, not readily compared to other players on the scene? So basically it's a question of humans trying to resist the evil, and that's it? These others have their role in the making their part of the affairs, but the scope is on people. These "middle-ones" just play in to the hands of the narration. Nevertheless, these others being much more powerful and independent of the things men (hobbits?) hold dear, they really rise in stature in the eyes of the reader. They are the heroes, without being heroes....
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03-26-2006, 12:57 PM | #75 | |||
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Not only is she in the top 16 by being one of the Valar - she is in the top ten as she is listed as one of the Aratar. The Silmarillion: Quote:
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03-26-2006, 02:29 PM | #76 | |
Cryptic Aura
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But I see that the man poet edited his list last night, so that original cause for query has been removed.
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03-26-2006, 02:59 PM | #77 |
A Northern Soul
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My comment still stands...she was not included yet because her placement among the males had not been discussed to that point. The list has rolling admission.
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03-27-2006, 08:35 PM | #78 |
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Thank you littlemanpoet for at least putting our brethren on the list, but i still have to ask Where are the other dwarves????? where among the creations of Eru ( and of couse of Mathar) do we have our well deserved place in the list..... almost at the bottom¡? humans and even hobbits have their own "individual" champions, so
what about our greatest father Dúrin or the great deeds of Azaghàl fron Belelgost of whom even the great worm ran away from on the Nirnaeth. then there is of course the great battle of the five armies (in wich even tough slained, i died from many wounds from many foes and killed the orc leader) ,Dain ironfoot or even more recently Balin lord of moria... i think that at least one of them should rank above Gimli (with all due respect to thy son of Glóin) even tough it has been telled that only him among the creations of mathar-eru ever saw the blessed kingdom in life.... |
03-27-2006, 10:21 PM | #79 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Why does everyone have such a boner for the Witch-King? He's way too high on your list. Being scary to Hobbits and average Men doesn't make someone powerful. He shouldn't be above any Eldar (seriously, are you joking or just trying to bait me?), nor should he be above Hurin or Turin or Huan or any of the Istari. Wait, you even gauged him above Balrogs? He was a MAN with delusions of invulnerability and a knack for freaking people out: Hurin would have laughed in his skinny face.
Last edited by obloquy; 03-27-2006 at 10:27 PM. |
03-28-2006, 12:08 AM | #80 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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Quote:
While I on the whole find this exercise to be a bit…hmmm…silly…I am curious as to why the Wargs in general are above the dwarves. The citable instance is when they chase the dwarves up the trees. However, Gandalf was right up there with them, most of the dwarves were unarmed, and they were grotesquely outnumbered (I suspect the unarmed bit was the decisive factor…the fact that Tolkien portrayed the dwarves as setting out on the quest totally unarmed is one of my greatest problems with The Hobbit, but that is a matter for another time). The dwarves did not seem particularly bothered by wargs in the Battle of Five Armies. The wargs didn’t develop a civilization…even the orcs had a rudimentary…uhhh…culture. “But they were just animals and couldn’t manipulate tools,” you say. "Exactly!" I reply.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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