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03-24-2006, 11:10 PM
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#1 |
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Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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Guiding Principle: Context is the determiner.
Eru Ilúvatar Melkor the Morgoth (primordial) Manwë Súlimo Ulmo Varda Elbereth Gilthoniel Yavanna Kementári Aulë Oromë Mandos Lorien Nienna Tulkas Astaldo Morgoth (earthbound) Estë Vairë Vana Nessa Arien Tilion Ancalagon Ungoliant Sauron Eonwë Uinen Ossë Glaurung Melian Olórin Curumo Aiwendil Pallando Alatar Salmar Eärendil amongst the stars Thorondor Gwaihir Landroval Eagles of Manwë Hawks of Manwë Smaug Gandalf the White Saruman the White Lúthien Tinúviel Fëanor Galadriel Fingolfin Fingon Finrod Felagund Gandalf the Grey Gothmog the Balrog Balrogs Elwë Thingol Finwë Olwë Finarfin Eärwen of Alqualondë Turgon Maedhros Idril Celebrindal Angrod Orodreth Finduilas Aegnor Glorfindel Celebrian Elrond Celeborn Huan Carcharoth Witch King of Angmar Khamul, 2nd Nazgúl Nazgúl Tuor Húrin Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological) Beren Eärendil in Middle Earth Elwing Gil-galad Círdan Elros Aredhel Maglor Amrod Amras Eöl Maeglin Celegorm Curufin Caranthir Elladan Elrohir Arwen Undómiel Aragorn son of Arathorn Radagast the Brown Blue Istari Shelob Tom Bombadil Treebeard Ents Mearas Trolls Beleg Frodo Baggins (the nine fingered) Eldar: Vanyar Eldar: Noldor Eldar: Teleri Legolas Eldar: Sindar Faramir Humans: line of Elros Dúrin I Azaghàl Gimli the Dwarf Beorn Dain Ironfoot Balin lord of Moria Thorin Oakenshield Half-trolls Eldar: Laiquendi Eldar: Nandor Eldar: Avari Dwarves Goldberry Denethor Eärnur Boromir Bard Humans: Gondorians Humans: Umbarians Humans: Rohirrim Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.) Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.) Bilbo Baggins Meriadoc Brandybuck Samwise Gamgee Peregrin Took Bullroarer Took Hobbits Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgúl Mouth of Sauron Saruman divested Ravens Crows Wargs Ted Sandyman Gríma Wormtongue Sméagol Half-orcs Uruk hai Orcs Gollum Spiders Last edited by littlemanpoet; 04-12-2006 at 07:48 PM. |
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03-24-2006, 11:33 PM
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#2 |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps.
Posts: 527
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Can't we all just agree that things are based on situation?
 Looking at that list, I'd put Luthien above Gandalf. Putting all of Angband to sleep is enough to qualify her for a higher position. Also, since Tolkien set the situation at Minas Tirith to appear as a clash of equals, I would put Gandalf the White and the Witch-King side by side. This is a list, yes, but due to no conflict at the gates of Minas Tirith and the way the passage was written, the best choice in my opinion would be to list them as equals. In the end, however, I would agree that the situation is too important a factor. The only characters that can safely be put on the list are Eru and Tom Bombadil. Even that is unsure.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
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03-25-2006, 10:05 AM
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#3 |
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Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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And Nienna, who influenced Olorin so much? Just think of her lessons of pity and the role pity plays in LotR.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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03-25-2006, 10:57 AM
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#4 |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
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How right Bethberry, how influential and important was Nienna in the outcome of the fate of Arda. I have thought much on Olorin and his wanderings to her house, and how her teachings of endurance of hope, shine through Gandalf into Middle-Earth. Surely pity it is which saved the day, and did that voice of pity in Frodo's head, have it's origin in Nienna.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
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03-25-2006, 02:33 PM
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#5 | |
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A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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Quote:
What moved Varda and Yavanna back on top of Ulmo? And the other rankings of the males [Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas]? The order prior to my post was restored in this last list.
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. Last edited by Legolas; 03-25-2006 at 02:38 PM. |
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03-25-2006, 08:26 PM
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#6 |
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Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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Oops! I fear that I used the wrong base list for my update. Which is why I need to have just one list. From now on I'll link to that one list. Sorry. I'll go fix.
The Updated List Last edited by littlemanpoet; 03-25-2006 at 08:35 PM. |
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03-25-2006, 09:14 PM
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#7 |
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Flame of the Ainulindalë
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves
Posts: 9,308
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As I can see the whole of this as a nice exercise, I would really like to hear the point of this all. In the tradition of scholastics from the middle-ages, it is downright understandable to search for the "order of creation", where every being had its place in the order of things, created by the supreme craftsman. But would Tolkien had such a thomistic view of the world? (He was catholic, to be sure, but anyway.) And how can you compare individuals with "races" or "subcultures", and put them in the same line?
The Nienna -affair seems to me the most telling one: Gandalf is the hero of the story, but he could not be, what he is, without Nienna. But what about Tom Bombadill? He (and Goldberry) are not seduced by the ring - neither are they able to use it (?) - but still controlling it, seeing through it and being able to understand it. They are powers beoynd the Middle-Earth proper. Like the ents, they are somewhat immune to these petty skirmishes of men versus the evil. I can see the LotR and Silm. as stories about the Valar, the Maiar, the elves (elevated mankind), men and the evil. These last ones seem to be the focus. The others are important, but not in the same league with the earlier ones. The Maiar are the tools of the Vala, and that's simple. But the Ents, Tom & Goldberry, the dwarves (due to their birth)? They seem to have some kind of justification of their own, not readily compared to other players on the scene? So basically it's a question of humans trying to resist the evil, and that's it? These others have their role in the making their part of the affairs, but the scope is on people. These "middle-ones" just play in to the hands of the narration. Nevertheless, these others being much more powerful and independent of the things men (hobbits?) hold dear, they really rise in stature in the eyes of the reader. They are the heroes, without being heroes....
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
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03-26-2006, 02:29 PM
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#8 | |
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Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Quote:
But I see that the man poet edited his list last night, so that original cause for query has been removed.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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03-26-2006, 02:59 PM
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#9 |
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A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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My comment still stands...she was not included yet because her placement among the males had not been discussed to that point. The list has rolling admission.
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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