Linguistic puns, riddles, and jokes in LotR, etc.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Frodo Baggins

Galadriel "Galad" this comes from the root "cal" or "gal" it means "shine" With Galadriel her name was often corrupted to "Galadhriel" but these two words have NO connection between Galad and galadh meaning "tree". in Quenya, Galadriel is Alatariel. Alata meaning 'radiance' and riel "garlanded maiden". Loose translation, "madien crowned with a radiant garland" a reference to her hair.

On reading 'alata' I immediately thought of Alatar (the Blue Wizard, not the downer -though that was my first thought). Maybe he's hinting that Alatar actually did do something good.
But that's not a pun, is it? The two are not related. Or are they? Is there something similar or connecteing them except coming out of the west?

[Morquesse]

Interesting discussion! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

When I first read LotR, the only way I remembered Legolas' name was because I thought of 'LEGOlas'. Now I think of 'Legless'. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

To be technically correct, the Old English word for 'Horse' is 'eoh', not 'eo' but any way. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Eorl, the ancester of the Rohan people, is the old english word for 'noble'.

And there is more stuff I found out about Pippin's names. 'Pippin' is a word of old slang meaning 'a person or thing much admired'. Peregrine is a word that can mean alian or strange (or as I believe they put in the Thesaurus,'weird one'), exotic, traveler or pilgrim. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

~M

[Samwise Gamgee]

Also, and I think this is probably what was meant by pippin, Pip is an apple seed and "pippin" is an apple - so he is small. That is a more british thing though, I believe.


Also, I think with the name Frodo meaning anything, after reading some of The History of Middle earth, I don't think the hobbit names have significance. The original Frodo was Bingo Bolger-Baggins (for a LONG time too) and Frodo was another character - a cross between Sam and Pippin, really.

One of the Rohan names I find interesting is Hama, which means home in Old English. Hama was the man in charge of screening guests to the Golden Hall, and was, in a sense, helping with the home.

[Mithalwen]

Although the standard transltion of Legolas is "Green Leaf" there is a good punning alternative - Laigo = sharp/ acute and L(h)as = ears a pointy eared bow-twanger indeed..

[littlemanpoet]

Boromir and Faramir.

I can't imagine that Tolkien thought this way: boring pond and faraway pond. Faramir always has struck me as the more feminine of the two names.

More likely, he was after Boromir as a forceful boar (or bore?); Faramir as farsighted?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

While poring over hobbit family trees, researching for something I want to write, I discovered something I find very amusing. The three fabulous Took sisters have four syllable names each, but they are made up of a total of only six syllables. That means each sister has two syllables from each of the others! Their names form a chain, so to speak: Belladonna, Donnamira, Mirabella. Belladonna has been mentioned as the deadly nightshade; I'm not sure yet whether the other two names have a botanic meaning. In German, "Mirabelle" is a yellow plum. So far, my searching for further meaning has not yielded any results.

[Farmira]

Well simply put... if we translated it very vaugly...

*bella* donna = *night* shade
Donna mirra = shade yellow?
Mirra *bella* = yellow *night* ?

Well a plum is dark in color... and maybe the color just before night?? I doubt if tolkien dove this deep into thinking about all of this... but maybe bella could be translated as "night" or "plum"...
... maybe im completely wrong... but if the chain is meant to be translated literally... i guess that would be the closest thing to it...

[Alfirin]

A few others,
Pippin's real name "Peregrin" of course sound a lot like "Peregrine" which is a type of falcon (perhaps indicating the brave warrior spirt under his peacuf hobbit outside) Re-enforcing thins is the fact that as I recall Peregrin's Father, the Thain was named Paladin which is a type of knight (I looked it up and technically it appers to refer to a knight of Charlemagne) and Pippin does end up a Knight of Gondor.
As a final double pun consider Theodens residence, Meduseld. This is usally translated (at least by Tolkein) as "Golden Hall". But of course "Med-" is also the orgin of the word "mead" and of course the center of any good Northern type village was the "mead hall" (which as I understand usally was the Cheiftans house) So Meduself becomes both "The Golden Hall" and "The Hall where evyone drinks their mead"

Speaking of Drink, I beive that somewhere its said that the Name of the Brandywine river is the result of a lingustic change in Hobbit from "Barad-nin" (Border water) to Barad-him (strong ale). (Thog if this is the case, I wonder whay the River is called the Brandywine and not the Barleywine, after all Brandy is not ale, and come to think of it I'm not enitirely sure the ME even knows about distillation yet)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

A few others,
Pippin's real name "Peregrin" of course sound a lot like "Peregrine" which is a type of falcon (perhaps indicating the brave warrior spirt under his peacuf hobbit outside) Re-enforcing thins is the fact that as I recall Peregrin's Father, the Thain was named Paladin which is a type of knight (I looked it up and technically it appers to refer to a knight of Charlemagne) and Pippin does end up a Knight of Gondor.

The use of pompous names are a hallmark of some families of Hobbits (particularly the upper class Tooks and Brandybucks). Some are of Welsh origin: Madoc, Caradoc, Gordobac etc. Some are Frankish: Isengrim, Pippin, Odo, Otho, Paladin, Hildibrand, etc. Some are even Latinate or Continental European: Gerontius, Donnamira, Mirabella, Ferdinand, Belladonna, Sigismond and Fortinbras (also the Prince of Norway in Shakespeare's Hamlet).

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Speaking of Drink, I beive that somewhere its said that the Name of the Brandywine river is the result of a lingustic change in Hobbit from "Barad-nin" (Border water) to Barad-him (strong ale). (Thog if this is the case, I wonder whay the River is called the Brandywine and not the Barleywine, after all Brandy is not ale, and come to think of it I'm not enitirely sure the ME even knows about distillation yet)

Actually, in Sindarin it is Baranduin, "golden-brown river", which is the color of brandy (in fact, brandy was usually referred to as brandy-wine in medieval texts). 'Heady Ale' is not pale but more brown in color (but not as dark as stout)...it's all in the color and not the specific alcoholic drink I guess.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The use of pompous names are a hallmark of some families of Hobbits (particularly the upper class Tooks and Brandybucks). Some are of Welsh origin: Madoc, Caradoc, Gordobac etc. Some are Frankish: Isengrim, Pippin, Odo, Otho, Paladin, Hildibrand, etc. Some are even Latinate or Continental European: Gerontius, Donnamira, Mirabella, Ferdinand, Belladonna, Sigismond and Fortinbras (also the Prince of Norway in Shakespeare's Hamlet).



Actually, in Sindarin it is Baranduin, "golden-brown river", which is the color of brandy (in fact, brandy was usually referred to as brandy-wine in medieval texts). 'Heady Ale' is not pale but more brown in color (but not as dark as stout)...it's all in the color and not the specific alcoholic drink I guess.

Pompus names remind me what about "Sackville-Baggins". Isn't there a real Engish surname "Sackville-bagg" (or "Bagge"?

On the River, I wasnt questioning the color I was just questioning whether, at the technological level most of ME was at in the Third age, anyone knew what distillation was, given that none of the beverages people are noted as drinking are distilled (no whisky, no eu-de-vie, and most important, no brandy) and whether, if distillation was unknown, naming a river the "Brandywine" might be an bit of an anachronism, since it would be naming it for it resembence to a beverage no one in ME had ever seen.)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

On the River, I wasnt questioning the color I was just questioning whether, at the technological level most of ME was at in the Third age, anyone knew what distillation was, given that none of the beverages people are noted as drinking are distilled (no whisky, no eu-de-vie, and most important, no brandy) and whether, if distillation was unknown, naming a river the "Brandywine" might be an bit of an anachronism, since it would be naming it for it resembence to a beverage no one in ME had ever seen.)

Well, the Elvish Miruvor is described as a 'cordial' I believe, which indicates it is a liquor or liquer and therefore distilled. But considering were are talking of Hobbits, it may well be anachronistic, unless of course there was a Benedictine monastery nearby Hobbiton.

[Galin]

To add a bit on Pippin: as already noted peregrine means 'foreign; alien; coming from abroad' or 'wandering, traveling, or migrating' (with respect to the bird, according to some sources the sense may have been a bird 'caught in transit,' as opposed to one taken from the nest). And Pippin can refer to 'any of numerous roundish or oblate varieties of apple.'

In Tolkien's notes on the name Pippin (published in The Peoples of Middle-Earth at least) appear the words raza 'stranger' and razan 'foreign', and it is related that Pippin's name was Razanur Tûc. There is also (same source) a word razar for a small red apple, so Razar 'Pippin', associated with the apple-word, but actually short for Razanur -- which can have the peregrine connection.

BTW Alfirin I was the one being annoying (that's what I meant in case the wording wasn't clear). No need for you to apologize in any case.

[Lord of Angmar]

I think that we should look at Tolkien's words not in a sense of breaking down what they mean but instead we should think about how they sound. All the words and names have an aesthetic appeal and the personalities of characters can be guessed by reading their names. The elves have fluid names that roll of the tongue, which denotes their harmony with the world and their ability to adapt. The dwarves have sharp, angular words, often consisting of many K's, B's, D's and Th's. When reading their words, their is no fluidity or continuum of sound (Khazad-dum, Azanulbizar, etc.) , which in many ways reflects their temper: no fluidity. They are quick to anger, and their mood can change as quickly as the weather. Tolkien's ability to create words that sound like what they describe was a valuable asset in his writing.

[akhtene]

Just found this in a dictionary.
A road closed at one end is called French fashion cul-de-sac which means the bottom of the sack. Or Bag-End , doesn't it?

Here's a phrase I love very much (Sam remembers the Gaffer's saying) "Whenever you open your big mouth you put your foot in it" , that is speak without thinking first. Just try visualising it [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by akhtene

Just found this in a dictionary.
A road closed at one end is called French fashion cul-de-sac which means the bottom of the sack. Or Bag-End , doesn't it?

Here's a phrase I love very much (Sam remembers the Gaffer's saying) "Whenever you open your big mouth you put your foot in it" , that is speak without thinking first. Just try visualising it [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

cul also means fesse, as in buttocks, which would mean a kind of 'bum's rush' if Tolkien were given to making jokes at French expense.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

So perhaps one might look at these names as meaning Belladonna had a rather poisonous personality, and Mirabella was either prickly or lazy, inclined to bestir herself only rather late in the day. As Tolkien says that Hobbits were fond of flower names for girls, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he occasionally had such things in mind

Many of these jokes and puns we are finding seem to be expended on hobbit and Shire names. Is this linguistic funny bone also handed to elven, Rohirrim or Gondorian names? Or is this one of Tolkien's ways of suggesting that the hobbits are indeed the smallest?

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Or is this one of Tolkien's ways of suggesting that the hobbits are indeed the smallest?

Smallest? Puns and jokes being "low", eh? Hmm...

Could this be a clue to the nature of hobbit resiliency? Whereas Men and Elves are always falling into despair over this that or the other, hobbits are able to endure even the grimmest of situations by injecting a little humor into them.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Smallest? Puns and jokes being "low", eh? Hmm...

Could this be a clue to the nature of hobbit resiliency? Whereas Men and Elves are always falling into despair over this that or the other, hobbits are able to endure even the grimmest of situations by injecting a little humor into them.

Hobbits also seem to lack a strong sense of authority or organisation. The Shire is said to be, after all, a sort of self-governing ideal. Comedy seems more likely among those who don't revere authority. Perhaps it is that Rohan and Gondor take themselves too seriously to admit of any undercutting of their authority.

Or that Tolkien's sense of humour could not be directed to such cultures.

[Morthoron]

I had forgotten to look up the mentions of Attercop and the other insults Bilbo throws at the spiders in The Annotated Hobbit, so here goes:

Attercop is from the Middle English atter-cop(pe), itself from Old English at(t)or-coppa, "spider" -- it means, literally, "poison head."

The Oxford English Dictionary defines Tomnoddy as "a foolish or stupid person."

Both Lob and Cob are words for "spider." Lob comes from the Middle-English loppe, lop(p), lob (Old English loppe, lobbe). Cob is rare as a separate word and is probably taken from cobweb (Middle-English coppe-web). In the Princess and the Goblin, however, George MacDonald used cob as a word for goblin.

The Annotated Hobbit is a treasure-trove (literally) of linguistic puns. Here is one regarding the name 'Gollum':

Constance B. Hieatt has noted that "Old Norse gull/goll, of which one inflected form would be gollum, means 'gold, treasure, something precious' and can also mean 'ring,' a point which may have occurred to Tolkien.

and another referring to the "An eye in a blue face" riddle in the 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter:

This riddle cleverly expresses the etymology of the word daisy in riddle form. The flower name comes from the Anglo-Saxon dæges eage ("day's eye"), which alludes to the flower's petals opening in the morning (revealing the yellow center) and closing in the evening. Hence it is the "eye of day" or "day's eye" -- the modern daisy.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tolkien's jokes in Rohan and Gondor are few and far between. It seems that he restricted his humorous asides to the Shire. I shan't belabour the well-known meanings of many Rohirric names in Old English, but it might be worth mentioning them again: Theoden, Goldwine, Thengel and Walda are all more or less poetic words for 'king', 'lord' or 'ruler' (gold-wine = 'gold-friend'). Eorl is much the same as Norse Jarl (the English word only gained its current meaning during Norse rule in England) and means 'lord' (modern English earl); Fengel means 'prince'. Aldor can mean 'age', but also 'chief', so is doubly applicable, and Gamling contains the element gamol (old age), so probably means 'old man'. The Mark itself has a name that is just a modernisation of OE mærc (mod. Eng. march, 'border land'), and which is probably better known in its Latinate form Mercia.

Other Rohirric names contain horse elements, hence Éowyn, 'horse-joy' (OE eoh, 'war-horse, charger', wyn, 'joy, glory'; Éomer, 'horse-famous' (OE mære, 'great, excellent, distinguished, famous, sublime, etc.') There aren't really any jokes there except for the fact that for most of the Lords of the Mark, the style "[name] King" is a tautology. As for Gondor, since its names are either Sindarin or Adûnaic I'll defer to others who know more about Tolkien's own languages.

So what does this mean? Personally I think that in the Shire and there alone Tolkien felt free to make jokes at the expense of the English. Like the hobbits, we are sitting on thousands of years of history that is still present in the language and more so in names; and like the hobbits, most of us are completely unaware of it. How many people called Alfred really know that their names mean 'Elven-counsel'? How many people called Septimus are seventh sons? Our place-names often reveal layers of ignorance covering a thousand years, so that we have names like Bredon on the Hill ('hill-hill on the hill'), the Bree-land Chetwood ('wood-wood'), and the several rivers in England called River Avon (Welsh afon, 'river'). The Hobbits are out of touch with their past, but their past is still there for those with eyes to see and with a power to affect the present. In Gondor and the Mark, still more so in the realms of the Elves, the inhabitants are more aware of their history, which makes this sort of humour a little more difficult to apply.

[EDIT] cross-posted with Underhill.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

Gamling contains the element gamol (old age), so probably means 'old man'.

In modern Swedish and Norwegian gammal means 'old' and the Danes also use a very similar word. Furthermore, gamling is in Swedish a widely used word for 'old person', more often than not used on men, so for us Swedes Gamling is basically an old man whose name is 'old man'.

[Alfirin]

"gamling" also always reminded me of "gamy" in the British colloquial sense of injured or lame (when referring to a limb) which also fits with the "old and doddering man" image

You referece to Septimus was interesting as I reminded of a musing I once had. Given the general tendecy (at least in European and or western cultures) toward smaller familes I wonder how many people are walking around with the given names Septimus, Octavian (or Octavia) and Decimus (I'm sure there is some name for "nine" but I've just never heard of someone named with it (it would be someting like Nonian or Nonius, right) for whom it is actually accurate. For that matter (in a magic/power sense) how many seventh sons of seventh sons are their still?

[Neferchoirwen]

Bilbo sounds like biblios, which is Greek for "book."

Books signify an education, which Bilbo was already equiped with. And quite obviously, Bilbo is the author of The Red Book of Westmarch, the book that is supposed to actually bring US the entire story of The Lord of The Rings.

[Rimbaud]

I've always seen Legolas and Gimli as gentle puns, one describing the Elven Casanova's flaxen legs, the other harking at gimlets.

Dry, twist of lemon.

[Måns]

Hmmm, something just crossed my mind, in the 7th century C.E. there was a Kign of the Franks, I think that he was of Merovingian descent and his name was Pepin. What makes this interesting is that he had the by-name the Short; thus Pepin the Short! In my language which is related to the Germanic language spoken in France at the time (before the latin in the form of, Lingua Romana rustica reclaimed the area) Pepin is Pippin!

Måns

[ July 09, 2003: Message edited by: Måns ]

[Sharkû]

That's because the name is just a translation of a real Westron hobbit name, cf. Appendix F II:
"In some old families, especially those of Fallohide origin such as the Tooks and the Bolgers, it was, however, the custom to give high-sounding first-names. Since most of these seem to have been drawn from legends of the past, of Men as well as of Hobbits, and many while now meaningless to Hobbits closely resembled the names of Men in the Vale of Anduin, or in Dale, or in the Mark, I have turned them into those old names, largely of Frankish and Gothic origin, that are still used by us or are met in our histories."

The fact that everything in the books which is English, or in a language related to it, is just supposed to be a translation should always be considered.

[Elennar Starfire]

A wierd thought:

El=god
rond-sounds like "round"

So Elrond=round god

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Barliman Butterbur

has four words in it. Barley, man, butter, and beer. this sort of makes sense, considering that he's an innkeeper.

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Elennar Starfire ]

[littlemanpoet]

Barliman Butterbur - hee hee! I like how you turned it into 'beer'. I always mentally stuck an extra 'r' on the end of bur - so though he's wholesome as butter, he's 'burr' rough around the edges.

Aragorn - arid; dried out? The 'g' makes him harsh. Compare his name to his father's - Arathorn - 'dry thorn' - makes him dry - and hardened - horn? which when you pull in the Hebrew analogy for 'horn' you get 'strength'. Dry, hardened strength. That's a bit of a reach, of course, but who knows?

Have at it! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by akhtene

Just found this in a dictionary.
A road closed at one end is called French fashion cul-de-sac which means the bottom of the sack. Or Bag-End , doesn't it?

Now that is a good find.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Aragorn - arid; dried out? The 'g' makes him harsh. Compare his name to his father's - Arathorn - 'dry thorn' - makes him dry - and hardened - horn? which when you pull in the Hebrew analogy for 'horn' you get 'strength'. Dry, hardened strength. That's a bit of a reach, of course, but who knows?

If I'm not mistaken the hebrew word for horn can also mean "beam" as in "a beam of light"....
... "A light from the shadows shall spring," eh?



edit- Woo! 1000th post! Utúlie'n aurë!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tolkien's linguistic puns and games are indeed a fascinating feature of his writing. Unfortunately most of those jokes require explanation for the likes of us to understand them, so extensive was his philological learning. The following are examples of which I'm particularly fond.

Writing about The Hobbit for an English newspaper, Tolkien explained the origin of Smaug's name:

The dragon bears as a name - a pseudonym - the past tense of the primitive Germanic verb Smugan, to squeeze through a hole: a low philological jest.

(Letter #25, to the editor of the Observer)

Then there's the case of the Withywindle. The following is from Shippey's J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century, and follows a quotation of the passage from The Old Forest that describes the river.

If Tolkien had left his study in Northmoor Road, walked back to the University Parks, crossed the 'Rainbow Bridge', and then walked along the other side of the river away from the town of Oxford in the direction of the villages of Wood Eaton and Water Eaton - as no doubt he did - he would have seen virtually the same sight: the slow, muddy, lazy river fringed with willows. The real river, the one that flows into the Thames at Oxford, is the Cherwell. The Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names gives a different derivation, but Tolkien was always capable of rejecting the advice of Oxford dictionaries. I think he derived the name from Old English *cier-welle, the first element coming from cierran, 'to turn to': so, 'the turning stream', 'the winding stream', which is what the Cherwell is... Further down the Thames, furthermore, is Windsor, which may take its name from *windels-ora, 'the place on the winding stream'. Finally, withy is simply the old word for 'willow', frequent in English place-names, like the Warwickshire Withybrook. The Withywindle is a combination of the Cherwell itself, and words for its two main features, its willows and its slowly-twisting course.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think this thread is worth raising from its second-page exile, if only for the airing of my new signature. Again I'm indebted to Professor Shippey for pointing out that the word 'okshen' means 'mess' in the Huddersfield dialect. Hence, he notes, Bilbo returns to Bag End at the conclusion of The Hobbit to find both an auction and a mess.

What I find much more amusing, though, is the description of the prices fetched by various items in said sale:

It was now nearly lunchtime, and most of the things had already been sold, for various prices from next to nothing to old songs (as is not unusual at auctions)

The range in prices could not have been very wide if the most expensive items were 'going for a song'!

[doug*platypus]

Back to the topic of puns, Fredegar's last name of Bolger (meaning, something that bulges?!) makes him a likely candidate for the nickname Fatty. Although I should point out that most of the puns mentioned in this thread are from our own invention, and probably not Tolkien's. With LOTR in so many languages now, there's bound to be some very funny stuff out there.

It's quite ironic that Pippin is actually the merry one, too! I guess we don't all have to do exactly what our names tell us to. Otherwise the Dark Lord might have wanted to soar on (yes, I know that's not the correct pronunciation) like an eagle, instead of plotting and scheming. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Joy]

Bumping this back to the top

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

From The Etymologies (The Lost Road and Other Writings).

Thōn- Ilk. thôn pine-tree. N. thaun pl. thuin is probably an early loan-word, with Ilk. ō treated as ON ō < ã*. Ilk. Dor-thonion 'Land of Pines', name of mountainous forest. N. of Doriath and afterwards becoming Taur-na-Fuin, a punning alteration of Dor-na-thuin (Noldorin translation of Ilk. Dor-thonion)

* I have used ã here to represent an 'a' with macron, which I couldn't seem to replicate on my machine. Squatter's note.

[Rilwen Gamgee]

"Incánus", as Gandalf was known to the South, reminds me of "incantation":

n. Ritual recitation of verbal charms or spells to produce a magical effect.

Obviously, very self-explanatory.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Beorn is the most obvious example of Tolkien's wordplay that I can think of. It means "man, noble, hero, warrior ..." in Old English, but originally meant "bear" according to Christopher Tolkien. Modern Swedish and Norwegian björn means "bear".



I found this myself in 'Description of the Island of Númenor' which I thought was a bit suspicious:

Vëantur, venturer?

In a way Vëantur was the first 'venturer' of Númenor:

When six hundred years had passed from the beginning of the Second Age Vëantur, Captain of King's Ships under Tar-Elendil, first achieved the voyage to Middle-earth. He brought his ship Entulessë (which signifies "Return") into Mithlond on the spring winds blowing from the west; and he returned in the autumn of the following year. Thereafter seafaring became the chief enterprise for daring and hardihood among the men of Númenor; and Aldarion son of Meneldur, whose wife was Vëantur's daughter, formed the Guild of Venturers, in which were joined all the tried mariners of Númenor

Vëantur probably means something entirely different translated, though.



PM, 'The Problem of ros':

It is also unfortunate that the first [the -ros in 'Elros'] appears too reminiscent of Latin rōs ['dew'] or Greek drosos, and the latter [the -ros in 'Maedhros' and 'Amros'] too close to well-known modern European 'red' words: as Latin russus, Italian rosso, English russet, rust, etc. However, the Elvish languages are inevitably full of such reminiscences, so that this is the lesser difficulty.

That sounds as if almost all of such reminiscences exist by accident; that Tolkien could not help that many words ended up similar to modern words or he did not care, or perhaps he used modern words as inspiration for some of his invented words and therefore they are similar.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Neithan, Túrin's name among the Gaurwaith, sounds like English 'Nathan'.

[punhub85]

So by this logic...
Boromir = Bold
Faramir = Fair
If there was a third, he’d be called Forumir — destined to moderate the great debates of Men.
His weapon? The Banhammer of Númenor.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I was thinking about the names, ‘Boromir’ and ‘Faramir’.

I’m thinking that Tolkien was so comfortable with linguistic ‘laws’ (which may seem quite esoteric to you and me) that he could use them to make linguistic puns, riddles, and jokes. Have you heard of Werner’s and Grimm’s Laws? I forget which is which, but here’s the basic idea: as time passes and the human tongue finds a more smooth way to produce a word, its pronunciation changes.

For example, a ‘b’ sound slides toward a ‘v’ sound (I’m simplifying), which slides toward an ‘f’ sound.

There’s more to it than that, but it’ll serve for what I’m thinking about.

Compare the Latin ‘vulpus’ to the English ‘fox’

(Latin isn’t the direct ancestor of English, but its literary form is older than that of English, and the two languages are related)

Boromir is older than Faramir.

‘Bor’ is reminiscent of the English ‘to bore’ – as in, ‘boring, yawn’, or ‘boring-digging a hole’.
‘mir’ is reminiscent of the English ‘mirror’ or ‘mere’, a water in which one can see clear reflection.
‘Far’ is reminiscent of, well, ‘far=distant’, which suggests far-seeing.

So, Boromir ‘mirrors’, perhaps, forcing the issue?
And Faramir ‘mirrors’, perhaps, far sight?

Do you think Tolkien though out his names on this level?

If so, what do you make of Frodo? Samwise? Pippin/Peregrin? Merry/Meriadoc? Legolas? Gimli? All the rest, such as Denethor, and so forth? And all those hobbit names in the genealogies?

[Pay no attention to this mad scribing: I’m dinging dat Tholgien vaz zo gomvorthavle vid tlinkhwizdig tlawsh dath he goult yewsh dem doo maig tlinkhwizdig bunsh, rrithils, on yoegz.- unless you can tell what the mad scribe is up to? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ]

[James the Just]

Four tines: Fork.
Three tines: Threek.
Two tines: Took.