Survivor: The Second Age - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lhunardawen · 03-29-2006, 03:30 AM

++CELEBRIAN

Okay, okay, she's a wonderful Elf...but she doesn't deserve to be here. Please don't make me give any further explanation other than what I've already said previously because, really, what else is there to say?

JennyHallu · 03-29-2006, 07:31 AM

++Celebrimbor

Celebrimbor's gullibility was the root of most of the problems faced during the Second Age. If a man is granted real skill and wisdom, he should use them, not allow himself to be duped by a known enemy.

And as for Celebrian, she represents a goodness and innocence that was sorely needed in Second Age ME. The 1,000 Reader, your arguement makes no sense: Frodo's journey to Valinor, while irrelevant, was also not his death. It was his ultimate triumph, a return to Eden-on-Earth, where he died a natural human death in his own good time. And Celebrian's retreat from Middle-Earth was, in the same way, NOT her death. It was the greatest tragedy to befall the world in the Second Age. (Celebrimbor's stupidity with the Rings, and the Numenoreans' stupidity with their ONE rule was just stupidity, and difficult to see as a tragedy, really) But that Celebrian's goodness and innocence was harmed by the corruption of Middle-Earth, that we learn that good things cannot last in a corrupt world, that is tragic. I say that Celebrian should survive, even win, as our own denial of the hopelessness of this Middle Earth.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-29-2006, 08:19 AM

+ + CELEBRIMBOR

His greed for knowledge of ring lore led him to be taken in by Sauron and thus significantly contributed towards the downfall of Kings of Men, the corruption of Dwarven Lords, the waning of Elven power in Middle-earth, the creation of the One Ring and, therefore, the near total victory of Sauron.

He was humiliatingly used as a flag by the armies of Mordor.

Basically, he was a complete embarrassment to the line of Feanor.

And, on the Island, he occupies himself weaving plants into rings and calling them Rings of Flower, rather than contributing usefully towards the tasks or camp duties.

Besides, if he goes, it will annoy Ang and TP.

Celuien · 03-29-2006, 08:51 AM

++ELROS

Same reasoning as before. Minus the part about boycotting the anti-Celebornists.

Lalaith · 03-29-2006, 09:17 AM

++ELROS

same reasons as before. And I'm fond of Celebrimbor. He's clever, he makes pretty things and he likes Galadriel. What's not to like?

Tuor in Gondolin · 03-29-2006, 11:09 AM

+ + Celebrimbor

Quote:

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You'd think the fate of eight previous elves (daddy + 7)
significantly caused by pride in their powers would
have had some influence on him.

Lalaith · 03-29-2006, 11:12 AM

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...

Tuor in Gondolin · 03-29-2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...

A good, debatable point. But his being taken in by
"appearances" of pre-deluge Sauron doesn't speak
highly for his discernment. I believe Galadriel
told (Atanatar?) to shove off.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-29-2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalaith

But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of...

It's not so much the rings themselves but rather who he took his ring-making tips off. Which shows exceptionally bad judgment on his part.

I think that it is safe to say that Middle-earth would have been a lot better off without the Rings of Power if that meant that there was also no One Ring ...

The 1,000 Reader · 03-29-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

And as for Celebrian, she represents a goodness and innocence that was sorely needed in Second Age ME. The 1,000 Reader, your arguement makes no sense: Frodo's journey to Valinor, while irrelevant, was also not his death. It was his ultimate triumph, a return to Eden-on-Earth, where he died a natural human death in his own good time. And Celebrian's retreat from Middle-Earth was, in the same way, NOT her death. It was the greatest tragedy to befall the world in the Second Age. (Celebrimbor's stupidity with the Rings, and the Numenoreans' stupidity with their ONE rule was just stupidity, and difficult to see as a tragedy, really) But that Celebrian's goodness and innocence was harmed by the corruption of Middle-Earth, that we learn that good things cannot last in a corrupt world, that is tragic. I say that Celebrian should survive, even win, as our own denial of the hopelessness of this Middle Earth.

As far as Middle-Earth was concerned, he/she was/were dead. I've even seen many wise members of these forums say that was Frodo's death in a sense. He was detached from Middle-Earth in pretty much every way, and that moment was the end of the line. Looking at Celebrian, the same applies.

Letting her win as you suggested wouldn't be honorable. That would be a pity win. A real survivor needs to win through their own skills, not because someone feels sorry for them.

It's the survival of the fittest, and she isn't fit.

Firefoot · 03-29-2006, 09:17 PM

++Elros

To recap my reasons (it was a couple days ago, now): as king, he basically did nothing except live for a really long time. The only things Elros is noted for are being related to Earendil, Elrond, etc., choosing mortality, being the first king of Numenor, and living a long time. At least Celebrimbor actually did something, however misguided he may have been in it. I'm not sure I want him to win, but I'd rather see Elros go first.

JennyHallu · 03-29-2006, 10:22 PM

Quote:

As far as Middle-Earth was concerned, he/she was/were dead. I've even seen many wise members of these forums say that was Frodo's death in a sense. He was detached from Middle-Earth in pretty much every way, and that moment was the end of the line. Looking at Celebrian, the same applies.

Letting her win as you suggested wouldn't be honorable. That would be a pity win. A real survivor needs to win through their own skills, not because someone feels sorry for them.

This isn't ME survivor, it's SA survivor, and I support Celebrian because of my respect for her, not pity.

Oh...and Glorfindel came back, so no elf who goes to Valinor can be hastily classified as "dead".

The 1,000 Reader · 03-30-2006, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

This isn't ME survivor, it's SA survivor, and I support Celebrian because of my respect for her, not pity.

Oh...and Glorfindel came back, so no elf who goes to Valinor can be hastily classified as "dead".

Yeah, this is SA survivor, and, as mentioned, we can use any event from any age to decide the outcome.

You also overlook the fact that Glorfindel actually died. He was sent to the Halls of Mandos and was then sent back to Middle-Earth. The Halls of Mandos really doesn't sound too pleasant. No elf has ever sailed to Valinor and come back.

Lalaith · 03-30-2006, 02:04 AM

Thingol, Finwe and Manwe all did...

03-29-2006, 07:31 AM	#2
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	++Celebrimbor Celebrimbor's gullibility was the root of most of the problems faced during the Second Age. If a man is granted real skill and wisdom, he should use them, not allow himself to be duped by a known enemy. And as for Celebrian, she represents a goodness and innocence that was sorely needed in Second Age ME. The 1,000 Reader, your arguement makes no sense: Frodo's journey to Valinor, while irrelevant, was also not his death. It was his ultimate triumph, a return to Eden-on-Earth, where he died a natural human death in his own good time. And Celebrian's retreat from Middle-Earth was, in the same way, NOT her death. It was the greatest tragedy to befall the world in the Second Age. (Celebrimbor's stupidity with the Rings, and the Numenoreans' stupidity with their ONE rule was just stupidity, and difficult to see as a tragedy, really) But that Celebrian's goodness and innocence was harmed by the corruption of Middle-Earth, that we learn that good things cannot last in a corrupt world, that is tragic. I say that Celebrian should survive, even win, as our own denial of the hopelessness of this Middle Earth. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

03-29-2006, 08:19 AM	#3
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	+ + CELEBRIMBOR His greed for knowledge of ring lore led him to be taken in by Sauron and thus significantly contributed towards the downfall of Kings of Men, the corruption of Dwarven Lords, the waning of Elven power in Middle-earth, the creation of the One Ring and, therefore, the near total victory of Sauron. He was humiliatingly used as a flag by the armies of Mordor. Basically, he was a complete embarrassment to the line of Feanor. And, on the Island, he occupies himself weaving plants into rings and calling them Rings of Flower, rather than contributing usefully towards the tasks or camp duties. Besides, if he goes, it will annoy Ang and TP. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-29-2006, 08:51 AM	#4
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	++ELROS Same reasoning as before. Minus the part about boycotting the anti-Celebornists. __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

03-29-2006, 09:17 AM	#5
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	++ELROS same reasons as before. And I'm fond of Celebrimbor. He's clever, he makes pretty things and he likes Galadriel. What's not to like? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-29-2006, 11:12 AM	#7
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	But what was the problem with the rings Celebrimbor made, anyway? Without them, Middle Earth would have been a lot worse of... __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

03-29-2006, 03:30 AM	#1
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	++CELEBRIAN Okay, okay, she's a wonderful Elf...but she doesn't deserve to be here. Please don't make me give any further explanation other than what I've already said previously because, really, what else is there to say?

03-29-2006, 09:17 PM	#11
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	++Elros To recap my reasons (it was a couple days ago, now): as king, he basically did nothing except live for a really long time. The only things Elros is noted for are being related to Earendil, Elrond, etc., choosing mortality, being the first king of Numenor, and living a long time. At least Celebrimbor actually did something, however misguided he may have been in it. I'm not sure I want him to win, but I'd rather see Elros go first.

03-30-2006, 02:04 AM	#14
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Thingol, Finwe and Manwe all did... __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling