Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nogrod · 03-29-2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I did toy with the idea of Vampires who could convert innocent villagers into their own kind a while back. The game would need to start with just one Vampire, but even then it seemed to me that it would be very difficult for the villagers to win, and impossible without the availability of double-lynchings.
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Although a three way game with Werewolves and a Vampire who could convert others into Vampires might be interesting, if completely confusing, if it could be worked out properly ...

If we had a game big enough (not too big anyhow), and the vampires would be contesting with the wolves?

We might f.ex. have a rule, that only those villains outnumbering the others, are allowed the "night-kill"? In this case the wolves would have the edge in the beginning, but if vampires would pass them in numbers, the wolves would be in a very sticky situation indeed. A kind of seer-wolf could do the trick to balance it somewhat. A seer-wolf would dream as a seer, but be revealed her/his dream-targets vampireness only. One could think of an automatic upgrading here, the W-S having "upgrades" to her/his dreams automatically, if someone s/he has dreamed of, had turned to a vampire later on?

Or the cursed villager, turning only to a wolf, not to a vampire: if the vampires would try to turn that person to a vampire, they would just be informed, that it didn't happen? During the days, both wolves and vampires would anyhow just have to make it with their tongues...

Anyway: the vampires ability to increase their numbers is a strong asset as the game goes forwards and should be balanced in someway...

The villagers, anyhow, seem to be the ones, that will really have the hard times... Maybe something to compensate to them also? The real seer having auotomatic upgrades? A PM'd Seer's discovery of innocence to all innocent villagers, when that comes around? Or maybe even all of the Seer's information passed on to all villagers - in that case no automatic upgrades, I guess = you couldn't believe everything the seer has learned after one or two days?

Or two hunters? Three? (a +15 game would be needed, I suppose) Maybe we could have different kinds of hunters? 1 normal (having to suspect one villain, of the kind that comes to kill her/him), 1 multiple-villain-hunter (able to suspect two or three villains at the same time, but only applying, if the attackers are of the kind - vampire or a wolf - s/he suspects) and 1 "Rambo-class"-hunter (not needing to suspect anyone: just dragging any attacker with her/him to death - the attacker killed could be randomly decided by the Mod)?

It seems fascinating - and very complicated! This, if thought through with care, could be a really challenging game. But the threat of one party or another being too overwhelming lures around...

EDIT: 500 messages!

Celuien · 03-29-2006, 04:12 PM

Another balance...maybe:

If a vampire targets a wolf, vampire dies. If a vampire attacks a gifted, nothing happens to the gifted AND the gifted learns the vampire's identity.

Or is that pushing the balance too far against the vampires?

JennyHallu · 03-29-2006, 04:15 PM

Um...I recognize that I may very well be all on my lonesome in this...

But I think the vampires sound absolutely confusing and unbalanced...especially in a game with two newbies have signed up. Grendelien and Findëasëa, are you still here?

I'm all for calling the werewolves potted petunias if our Fearless Leader so wishes, but actually modifying the game for these vampires sounds too confusing. A lot of kinks need to be worked out first.

Nogrod · 03-29-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Um...I recognize that I may very well be all on my lonesome in this...

But I think the vampires sound absolutely confusing and unbalanced...especially in a game with two newbies have signed up.

I don't know about the tone or intent of others participating on this discussion about the vampires. I have only toyed about the possibility of this kind of game - in some future, not probably a very near one, because I believe, this requires some serious thought first.

It sounds interesting - if it could be well and balancedly organized. I have no intention in asking Farael to go on with this wild idea in an instant, in a game that after all is his game! That's not something that I could, or even would like to do...

Farael · 03-29-2006, 04:53 PM

How about this?

(We'd need a large village) The game starts with four wereorcs and one vampire. The vampire may choose one villager every night to "transform" but only if this transformation will not put the number of vampires over half the number of wereorcs (rounding up)

Effectively, this means that you can only have two vampires, and that only if there are three or four wereorcs.

So, first day we have four wereorcs and one vampire.

Second day I assume it'll be four wereorcs and now two vampires, the vampires can't get anyone else.

Third day the villagers lynch a wereorc, but given the rounding up two vampires are still allowed.

Fourth day the villagers lynch a vampire. Fourth night, the vampire chooses someone else.

Fifth day, the living vampire already choose his next victim, so it's back to three wereorcs and two vampires, but when the day is done the villagers lynch another wereorc. Now the ratio is two-two, so should the villagers get another vampire, the remaining one can't transform anyone else.

BUT.

If the vampire tries to convert a wereorc nothing happens yet both learn each other's identity. If the wereorc decides to attack the vampire, the vampire is kiled.

If the vampire tries to convert a gifted, their role is revealed to the gifted and the fact that the other person was "gifted" is revealed to the vampire, but not what gift he/she has.

Wouldn't the game be over too soon? well, to avoid needing a 30+ village which can get far too hectic, I'd say that the vampire is "smarter" than a wereorc and thus he lets the wereorcs do the dirty job while he kicks back and selects his allies carefully. Once all the wereorcs are dead, and should the vampire still be alive, he starts getting a nightly kill.

Still, we'd need a village of about 20 people for it to work out.... and that's only if you all want to try it out.

Oh, and trying the role of the vampries would mean that we are not doing the Shaman thing.... that way we cah see if a game with vampires is fun or not and on a later day we can do the same experiment for a game with a shaman.

Legolas in spandex · 03-29-2006, 05:42 PM

Is THIS what I was PM'D about? I am so confuzzled.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-29-2006, 05:56 PM

That all looks far too complicated to me, Farael.

My speculation about vampires was as an alternative to werewolves, rather than as an additional team. Even then, it would need to be carefully worked out and might ultimately prove to be unworkable.

All this adding extra roles and boosting the powers of others to compensate seems to me simply to add unnecssary complication and risks seriously unbalancing the game. I am all for tweaking the roles or trying out new ones, but I think it best that these things be done incrementally rather than by wholesale change. That way, new roles can be tested with minimum risk of imbalance and, if they work, can be later incorprated into new games in different combinations.

Oh, and I still don't like wereorcs. They just come across as wholly underwhelming.

How about were-wyrms? They're canon.

Farael · 03-29-2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

That all looks far too complicated to me, Farael.

I guess us young ones are more used to change

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPM

All this adding extra roles and boosting the powers of others to compensate seems to me simply to add unnecssary complication and risks seriously unbalancing the game. I am all for tweaking the roles or trying out new ones, but I think it best that these things be done incrementally rather than by wholesale change. That way, new roles can be tested with minimum risk of imbalance and, if they work, can be later incorprated into new games in different combinations.

Well, I wouldn't really be giving anything to the others to compensate. Let me state it more simply.

There is a cap on the number of vampires, which is half the number of wereX rounded up. The vampires can only be more than the cap number should the wereX get lynched but not the vampires.

The vampires don't get a nightly kill untill all the wereX are gone.

A vampire trying to convert a wereX gets himself revealed to the wereX
A vampire trying to convert a gifted reveals himself to the gifted and in turn the vampire knows he has chosen a gifted (but not what gifted)

A wereX trying to devour a vampire does it as if it was a villager.

Vampires don't get nightly kills until all the wereX's are gone.

The only way it'd work is with a large village though. The vampires are unlike the werebears in that they don't get a nightly kill every night, and the only way they can rid themselves of the wereX's is by the "conventional" methods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPM

Oh, and I still don't like wereorcs. They just come across as wholly underwhelming.
How about were-wyrms? They're canon.

Ok.... were-wyrms in a dwarven cave?

Celuien · 03-29-2006, 05:57 PM

All looks good to me, Farael. I like the cap on the number of vampires. Keeps them from winning just by transforming all of the ordos.

I'd like to give it a try, if possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legolas

Is THIS what I was PM'D about? I am so confuzzled.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Werewolf.

This is the recruiting/admin thread for most of the Tol-in-Gaurhoth games, so if you're looking to sign up for a game, you've come to the right place.

Any questions, ask away.

Celuien · 03-29-2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Um...I recognize that I may very well be all on my lonesome in this...

But I think the vampires sound absolutely confusing and unbalanced...especially in a game with two newbies have signed up. Grendelien and Findëasëa, are you still here?

I'm all for calling the werewolves potted petunias if our Fearless Leader so wishes, but actually modifying the game for these vampires sounds too confusing. A lot of kinks need to be worked out first.

Aww, confusion is fun.

But seriously, you have a point. And the vampire is awfully similar to Elempi's confusing evil wizard. That game is going to be very, very complex.

Players:

Caranlondien
JennyHallu
Nogrod?
Diamond?
Grendelien
Saucepan Wolf
Findëasëa
Celuien (un-question-marked myself.

)
Zali

So we have 9 (?) so far. Maybe the village won't be large enough for the new role anyway.

03-29-2006, 04:12 PM	#2
Celuien Riveting Ribbiter Join Date: May 2005 Location: Assigned to Mordor Posts: 1,767	Another balance...maybe: If a vampire targets a wolf, vampire dies. If a vampire attacks a gifted, nothing happens to the gifted AND the gifted learns the vampire's identity. Or is that pushing the balance too far against the vampires? __________________ People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff.

03-29-2006, 04:15 PM	#3
JennyHallu The Pearl, The Lily Maid Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In my luxury Barrow, snuggled up in a pile of satin pillows, eating fresh fruit. Posts: 1,628	Um...I recognize that I may very well be all on my lonesome in this... But I think the vampires sound absolutely confusing and unbalanced...especially in a game with two newbies have signed up. Grendelien and Findëasëa, are you still here? I'm all for calling the werewolves potted petunias if our Fearless Leader so wishes, but actually modifying the game for these vampires sounds too confusing. A lot of kinks need to be worked out first. __________________ <=== Lookee, lookee, lots of IM handles!

03-29-2006, 04:53 PM	#5
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	How about this? (We'd need a large village) The game starts with four wereorcs and one vampire. The vampire may choose one villager every night to "transform" but only if this transformation will not put the number of vampires over half the number of wereorcs (rounding up) Effectively, this means that you can only have two vampires, and that only if there are three or four wereorcs. So, first day we have four wereorcs and one vampire. Second day I assume it'll be four wereorcs and now two vampires, the vampires can't get anyone else. Third day the villagers lynch a wereorc, but given the rounding up two vampires are still allowed. Fourth day the villagers lynch a vampire. Fourth night, the vampire chooses someone else. Fifth day, the living vampire already choose his next victim, so it's back to three wereorcs and two vampires, but when the day is done the villagers lynch another wereorc. Now the ratio is two-two, so should the villagers get another vampire, the remaining one can't transform anyone else. BUT. If the vampire tries to convert a wereorc nothing happens yet both learn each other's identity. If the wereorc decides to attack the vampire, the vampire is kiled. If the vampire tries to convert a gifted, their role is revealed to the gifted and the fact that the other person was "gifted" is revealed to the vampire, but not what gift he/she has. Wouldn't the game be over too soon? well, to avoid needing a 30+ village which can get far too hectic, I'd say that the vampire is "smarter" than a wereorc and thus he lets the wereorcs do the dirty job while he kicks back and selects his allies carefully. Once all the wereorcs are dead, and should the vampire still be alive, he starts getting a nightly kill. Still, we'd need a village of about 20 people for it to work out.... and that's only if you all want to try it out. Oh, and trying the role of the vampries would mean that we are not doing the Shaman thing.... that way we cah see if a game with vampires is fun or not and on a later day we can do the same experiment for a game with a shaman. __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

03-29-2006, 05:42 PM	#6
Legolas in spandex Wight Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 102	Is THIS what I was PM'D about? I am so confuzzled. __________________ "I want to die in my sleep, like my grandfather... not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car."

03-29-2006, 05:56 PM	#7
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	That all looks far too complicated to me, Farael. My speculation about vampires was as an alternative to werewolves, rather than as an additional team. Even then, it would need to be carefully worked out and might ultimately prove to be unworkable. All this adding extra roles and boosting the powers of others to compensate seems to me simply to add unnecssary complication and risks seriously unbalancing the game. I am all for tweaking the roles or trying out new ones, but I think it best that these things be done incrementally rather than by wholesale change. That way, new roles can be tested with minimum risk of imbalance and, if they work, can be later incorprated into new games in different combinations. Oh, and I still don't like wereorcs. They just come across as wholly underwhelming. How about were-wyrms? They're canon. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 03-29-2006 at 06:01 PM.