Relative Powers

[Legolas]

Ungoliant appears to be more powerful than Ancalagon, though I don't know of any characteristics of the two that we can compare. Morgoth struggled with Ungoliant and could not control her. Would he have struggled with Ancalagon if he turned against him?

Third, why is Arwen so high? As far as I can tell, her "power" consists entirely of beauty and banner-weaving ability.

Apparently she was also a good cook (per oblo's post). On a serious note, she is overrated in my estimation - I definitely would not place her above the three wizards (or even Hurin, Turin, Beren maybe?).

Is Galadriel truly the most powerful of the Noldorin royal line?

[Thalion]

Fourth, I think Ungoliant ought to be higher. She is a strange and unique figure in the Legendarium, and she seems (to me, at least), to have a kind of profound, primordial power. Consider that she almost defeated Morgoth before the Balrogs came to his aid.

I'm not entirely sure where I would place Ungoliant, but I think there is something that is being lost here in the discussion of her battle with Morgoth. When Morgoth was almost defeated by Ungoliant, it was because she had within her the light of the two trees of Valinor..., the light gave presumably immense power that combined with her "natural" strength/power/ability was nearly too much for Morgoth (reminiscent somewhat of Carcharoth when he had the Silmaril in him)

When making a determination of where to place Ungoliant, it should therefore be noted that her placing on the list should be deminative of what I would deem her "natural power", not that as it was magnified as a result of the light of the trees within her...

[Lalaith]

Legolas, Tolkien says Galadriel was

the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe,though she was wiser than he

[Legolas]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Legolas, Tolkien says Galadriel was

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. I recalled this quote - 'A sister they had, Galadriel, most beautiful of all the house of Finwë' - but nothing else to be found in The Silmarillion. Also, didn't see Fëanor above her. Fëanor and Finrod would've been my candidates.

[Thalion]

A number of notes:

1) In noting that all other species differentiate between a leader and all others generally, I think ENTS should be broken into ENTS and Treebeard, Treebeard's placing directly above all other Ents...small but somewhat (in)consequential

2) Why does Balin deserve placing above Thorin, whom for awhile he was subserviant to?

3) Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are very far apart on the list...again, what is the rationale? I think since they are both enigmas of Tolkien's work, they should be placed relatively close together...

4) Regarding the Ring and future placement of the Silmarils...I think one shouldn't place these on the list at all...the list looks to be one of living characters, the Ring may be considered the "essense" of Sauron, but thats still NOT Sauron...just as the Silmarils are the "embodiment" of the two trees, but they are not the two trees...if you include the two trees of valinor on this list, then yes, you should include the silmarils, and then by conjecture, you could include the Ring...but since I don't think there is any intention of including the two trees of Valinor (I personlly see this as silly), I think by the same logic you shouldn't include either of the other two...specifically, the Ring reflects the power that wields it (albiet with an evil/Sauron twist)...it isn't an entity unto itself...

5) Beren is listed lower than Aragorn? Aragorn may be the savior of Gondor, but Beren cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown...additionally, he was able to pass through the Girdle of Melian...he prowess seems a little low on the list

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Thalion

Can someone explain how the Blue Istari are placed above Radagast?

Good point. And welcome to the Downs.

Originally Posted by Thalion

I think ENTS should be broken into ENTS and Treebeard.

Done.

Originally Posted by Thalion

Why does Balin deserve placing above Thorin, whom for awhile he was subserviant to?

Though subservient to Thorin, my reading of TH and LotR show Balin as more noble of character.

Originally Posted by Thalion

Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are very far apart on the list...again, what is the rationale?

Tom is lord of his realm whereas Goldberry is a river-daughter and rises to become Tom's spouse; beautiful and pucent in her own realm, yes, but that realm is small (her home and its surroundings).

Originally Posted by Thalion

Regarding the Ring and future placement of the Silmarils...I think one shouldn't place these on the list at all.

I'm persuaded, and have changed my "guiding principle" accordingly.

Originally Posted by Thalion

Beren is listed lower than Aragorn?

No longer. Thanks for your excellent points, Thalion.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

why is Beren lower Aragorn?

noted.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

why is Arwen so high?

By deduction from heredity. But I'll grant that she doesn't exhibit this; although Tolkien says that she is the image of Luthien. What does that count for?

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

we ought also to distinguish the primordial Melkor from the pseudo-historical Morgoth

Done.

Shelob is raised as recent arguments reflect.

I'm debating with myself whether there's really a difference between Olórin and Gandalf the White. I'm not sure there is.

Updated List

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by lmp

...Bilbo still would be superior to one spider, perhaps in combat, but most certainly in culture and moral superiority. (#67)

Though subservient to Thorin, my reading of TH and LotR show Balin as more noble of character.(#106)

Nobility of character, cultural superiority, and general moral fiber are difficult metrics. If you factor these in, aren't you obliged to bump the likes of Morgoth, Fëanor, Sauron, and Saruman (for starters) down the list a ways for their social and moral defects? Furthermore, I can't see what Trolls are doing so far up the list considering they have even less culture than orcs, apparently; all they have going for them is size, strength, and an amusing accent.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I'm debating with myself whether there's really a difference between Olórin and Gandalf the White. I'm not sure there is.

You're unaware of the difference between a Maia in its natural incorporeal form and one that has been fully incarnated in the form of an old man?

Here's how I would design the list:

RED: [gods - Valar] *Melkor; *Manwe

RED-ORANGE: [unknown] Ungoliante? Tom Bombadil?

ORANGE: [angels - Maiar] *Eonwe; Arien; *Sauron; *Olorin; Melian; Curumo; Gothmog; Huan

ORANGE: [demigods - Eldar] *Luthien; *Galadriel; *Feanor; Glorfindel; Ecthelion; Galdor?

ORANGE: [creatures - Dragons and Others] *Ancalagon; Glaurung; Carcharoth; Smaug; Draugluin

YELLOW: [heroes - Eldar, Atani, Dwarves] *Hurin; Turin; Tuor; Beren; Thrain; Aragorn

GREEN: [the children - Elves, Men/Hobbits, Dwarves] Celeborn; Boromir; Legolas

BLUE: [lesser humanoids - Orcs]

BABY BLUE: [beasts]

Colors indicate possible overlaps between categories. For example, Ungoliante might be considered more powerful than some Valar. Another example is Ancalagon and Glaurung being on par with the Maiar, perhaps. Rankings in each bracket are more or less approximate, except where marked by an asterisk, which indicates that the individual is fairly certainly in the correct position (usually the top positions of the tier). Obviously my list isn't as extensive as yours, but I don't necessarily think it should be. Some things go without saying, and many individuals are impossible to gauge.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Thalion

I'm not entirely sure where I would place Ungoliant, but I think there is something that is being lost here in the discussion of her battle with Morgoth. When Morgoth was almost defeated by Ungoliant, it was because she had within her the light of the two trees of Valinor..., the light gave presumably immense power that combined with her "natural" strength/power/ability was nearly too much for Morgoth (reminiscent somewhat of Carcharoth when he had the Silmaril in him)

When making a determination of where to place Ungoliant, it should therefore be noted that her placing on the list should be deminative of what I would deem her "natural power", not that as it was magnified as a result of the light of the trees within her...

I agree in general, Thalion, that Ungoliant's position on the list should be made with the her normal abilities in mind, but those normal abilities would appear to be fairly large to begin with.

Let us first look at Shelob, Ungoliant's offspring. Shelob is a pretty fearsome creature. Sam had the luck to be carrying a Gondolin-wrought sword on which Shelob was foolish enough to impale herself, but it says right there in the text that any other sort of assault would have been pretty much futile. "Not though the hand of Beren, Húrin, or Túrin wielded it" says the text, more or less.

Therefore, Shelob is a pretty fearsome creature. How much moreso, therefore, should Ungoliant be? After all, just as the Spiders of Mirkwood are the offspring (or so it appears) of Shelob and males of lesser stature, I seem to recall it being said that Ungoliant mated with lesser males, thus producing children- of which Shelob is one.

Therefore, if we assume a similar disparity of power between Ungoliant and Shelob as between Shelob and her offspring, we get a pretty powerful being indeed.

Personally, I should place Ungoliant just below the Balrogs- or possibly above, since the case could be made that it took all of them to drive her off, and that one of them couldn't have done so alone.