Relative Powers

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I
“But they were just animals and couldn’t manipulate tools,” you say.

"Exactly!" I reply.

I know lots of cats who are quite successfully able to manipulate their human owners.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled topic.

Originally Posted by Elven One

My comment still stands...she was not included yet because her placement among the males had not been discussed to that point. The list has rolling admission.

And Nessa was rolled before the other Queens, I guess. Well, she first appears in post #21:

Originally Posted by lmp

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Witch King of Angmar
Gandalf the White
Saruman
Gandalf the Grey
Balrogs
Thorondor
Eagles
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Blue Istari
Radagast
Glorfindel
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Goldberry
Elves
Uruk hai
Wargs
Humans
Dwarves
Orcs
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Goblins
Spiders
Hobbits

and then post #50 continues with the inclusion of Nessa but omission of Nienna.

Originally Posted by lmp

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Varda
Yavanna
Ulmo
Aulë
Mandos
Tulkas
Lorien
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
Ancalagon
Ungoliant
Glaurung
Smaug
Sauron
Eonwë
Osse
Uinen
The Ring
Gandalf the White
Witch King of Angmar
Saruman
Fëanor
Finrod Felagund
Melian
Gandalf the Grey
Galadriel
Thingol
Elrond
Glorfindel
Balrogs
Nazgúl
Arwen Undómiel
Húrin
Túrin Turambar (Morgoth slaying is eschatological)
Círdan
Blue Istari
Thorondor
Eagles
Huan
Aragorn son of Arathorn
Radagast
Tom Bombadil
Ents
Trolls
Shelob
Beleg
Frodo Baggins
Eldar: Vanyar
Eldar: Noldor
Eldar: Teleri
Legolas
Eldar: Sindar
Faramir
Humans: line of Elros
Gimli the Dwarf
Half-trolls
Eldar: Laiquendi
Eldar: Nandor
Eldar: Avari
Wargs
Dwarves
Goldberry
Denethor
Boromir
Humans: Gondorians
Humans: Umbarians
Humans: Rohirrim
Humans: of the North (Bree, Dunlendings, Beornings, Esgaroth, etc.)
Humans: of the East & South (non-Umbarian Harad, Easterlings, etc.)
Half-orcs
Uruk hai
Orcs
Meriadoc Brandybuck
Samwise Gamgee
Peregrin Took
Bullroarer Took
Gollum
Hobbits
Goblins
Spiders

Then in response to your post #53 Nienna is placed, and appears in post #55:

Originally Posted by lmp

Eru
Morgoth
Manwë
Ulmo
Varda
Yavanna
Aulë
Oromë
Mandos
Lorien
Nienna
Tulkas
Estë
Vairë
Vana
Nessa
Earendil
. . . .

but she was omitted--most probably inadvertently I would assume given LMP's meticulous work here, unless he loves to throw out a few nets with which to catch some fish--in post #68 as originally posted 03.25.2006 at 12.10 am (my time I guess), to be reinserted in edit at 9:38 pm of the same day.

So, your argument that Nienna had not been included because because of your post #53 does not apply to my question, which pertained to a removal.

You know, I really agree with Child and Mr. U and SpM that this kind of thing seems to run counter to Tolkien's use of Frodo, but isn't it fun? I wonder if we could also do a parallel list about Spiritual properties, a hierarchy of the most true. By how much would it differ from this one?

Really, we do dance upon barrow tops.

[Rimbaud]

Why not go the whole hog and couch the debate in more sensible terms; ie 'who could whup whom?'

I'm fondly imagining that Tulkas would give Sauron the royal smack-down.

Or, more pertinently, I don't think you can place such disparate entities on any sort of coherent list. You could have an amusing debate on which Elf was the fastest or which Dwarf the dwarfiest, but comparing gods and mortals is a plan which aft gan aglay so often that the mice have given up.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

As I can see the whole of this as a nice exercise, I would really like to hear the point of this all.

Sheer curiosity. Oh, you wanted something more than that? Hmmm..... well, how about this: I just really wanted to get a handle on how certain evil Maiar would compare in terms of spiritual hierarchy to, say, Blue Istari, and the whole thing sort of snowballed. Oh. Well, that's just another way of saying "sheer curiosity". Well, that's the point of it I guess. Sorry to disappoint.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

In the tradition of scholastics from the middle-ages, it is downright understandable to search for the "order of creation", where every being had its place in the order of things, created by the supreme craftsman.

Now you know how theology got its start.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But would Tolkien had such a thomistic view of the world? (He was catholic, to be sure, but anyway.)

You just answered your own question. Yes.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And how can you compare individuals with "races" or "subcultures", and put them in the same line?

The wording of your question seems to presume that you can't. I'm not having a problem with it. Care to describe what you think can't be done about it?

Originally Posted by Orcrist Wielder

Thank you littlemanpoet for at least putting our brethren on the list, but i still have to ask Where are the other dwarves?????

I hope that my latest edits satisfy your request a little bit?

Originally Posted by obloquy

Why does everyone have such a boner for the Witch-King?

I've dropped the Witch-King a certain degree, because it occurred to me that much of the Witch-King's seeming height of power at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was due to the power and will of Sauron so focused upon said battle. Nevertheless, the ring the Witch-King wears IS who the Witch-King is, and therefore must be understood as central to his power, which is (ahem) more than 'skinny faced'. So above Húrin he goes until you can persuade me otherwise, or else start your own list (if you like) as I've suggested already to others....

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I am curious as to why the Wargs in general are above the dwarves.

Point taken. I've lowered them, and added Ravens and Crows to a (I suppose) reasonable place.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You know, I really agree with Child and Mr. U and SpM that this kind of thing seems to run counter to Tolkien's use of Frodo, but isn't it fun?

Now you're talking.

Originally Posted by Bb

I wonder if we could also do a parallel list about Spiritual properties, a hierarchy of the most true. By how much would it differ from this one?

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

Why not go the whole hog and couch the debate in more sensible terms; ie 'who could whup whom?'

These last two quotes are akin, so I shall answer them together. This more or less started as a "who could whup whom", but as more information came forward it became obvious that spiritual power, cultural strength, and other considerations are at least as important as battle prowess.

And here is the Updated List.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I've dropped the Witch-King a certain degree, because it occurred to me that much of the Witch-King's seeming height of power at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was due to the power and will of Sauron so focused upon said battle. Nevertheless, the ring the Witch-King wears IS who the Witch-King is, and therefore must be understood as central to his power, which is (ahem) more than 'skinny faced'. So above Húrin he goes until you can persuade me otherwise, or else start your own list (if you like) as I've suggested already to others....

Are you familiar with Hurin? Have you read about him?

Additionally, what about Huan, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards? All of these folks are incarnate Maiar and would own the hell out of the WK. Cirdan is Calaquend (although Telerin [edit: some may have noticed this error]) as well, homeboy, so the WK's got nothing on him. Turin ruined Glaurung, so how do you reconcile that?

I won't make my own list, but I might rearrange yours a little.

I recommend:

- add Olorin to the list immediately above or below Sauron
- move Eonwe to right below the Valar and move Sauron and Olorin just below him
- add Arien above Sauron and below Eonwe
- drop Earendil below all the Maiar
- Ungoliante should be somewhere amidst the Valar, though who is above and below I couldn't say
- add Curumo (to distinguish between Saruman in his incarnate form and his natural form, as with Olorin and Gandalf above) and place him just below Olorin
- move the dragons below all the Maiar
- add Gothmog and place him below Curumo
- move the Balrogs to the bottom of the Maiar list but above all the others except for Glorfindel, Luthien, Thingol, Feanor, Finrod, Galadriel, and Galdor (who you need to add)
- remove The Ring
- what's Arwen doing on this list?

[narfforc]

Sorry Obloquy but to have the list with all sorts of minor beasties on, and not Arwen, after all she is the daughter of Elrond and grand-daughter of Galadriel, she must have some power; more than a lot of the humans on the list. In saying all that, it is never apparent, we can only assume by her lineage and teachings at Rivendell, that she has power, surely she didn't spend all day lounging around like some bored little princess. If she did have power, where on the list would Elladan and Elrohir come?, who must surely have had special training.

On another note, where is that great dragon-slayer Bard?

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Are you familiar with Hurin? Have you read about him?

Additionally, what about Huan, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards? All of these folks are incarnate Maiar and would own the hell out of the WK.

I get the feeling that the Morgul Lord would have beaten a large hound. Also, just because a character is a maia doesn't mean they win. Just look at Sauron. Finally, Turin climbed up a gorge and stabbed Glaurung in the stomach while he slept.

[Earendilyon]

Some minor nit-picks:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Nevertheless, the ring the Witch-King wears IS who the Witch-King is

IIRC, the Nine Rings were in Sauron's possession, not in the Nazgûl's.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Additionally, what about Huan, Radagast, and the Blue Wizards? All of these folks are incarnate Maiar

You're assuming here that Huan is a Maia, while there's no text supporting that idea, as far as I know.

[narfforc]

I think that Huan, like the the Mearas, were special bred animals from Valinor. Were they not bred by Orome, for his hunting of the evil creatures of Middle-Earth?. If Huan was a Maia, why was he given special permission to speak, even non-Maia creatures can speak, even Gurthang spoke, surely a Maia would be able to converse in any body quite freely.

[drigel]

You're assuming here that Huan is a Maia, while there's no text supporting that idea, as far as I know.

here's another rub to the list that I havent thought until now - the power of fate or doom (or prophecy), as it incorporates with the characters, examples:

WK was not going to be slain by any "man" - wouldnt that default him above at least all the human males? What about elvish males?

Huan -

.....and it was decreed that he should meet death, but not until he encountered the mightiest wolf that would ever walk the world.

so, regardless of the Maiar issue, a timeline to be considered - any entity having hostile actions towards Huan before the wolf encounter would be dealing not only with Huan, but also with the doom that was bound to to that hound dog.

After all, we seem to be judging a person's/thing's 'power' by its effect on the world/other people.

- remove The Ring

Or, if you include objects, then consider others - the Watchers, Orthanc, the Mirror of Galadriel, etc etc.

[narfforc]

I think the problem with a list like this, is its fragmentation. If you were to sub-catergorize into species or items, sort them out into some kind of order, then you could try and slot them into place. At the moment there is a lot of problems trying to come to terms with species against species, and there are persons in the wrong order in there own catergory. This will also cause problems no doubt, with people claiming Elendil to be more powerful than Aragorn. One thing to remember Middle-Earth was in decline, and so were its people, The Three were made to hold back that decay. Another problem to occur is that of double entries, or in the case of Olorin/Gandalf the Grey/White, triple. If this is the case then what do we do with Feanor, do we place him as the greatest elf that ever lived, then put in another entry for him somewhere further down the list, after the madness of The Kinslaying. Another one is the Hurin/Turin saga, should we look at individuals at the greatest moment , or at their worst/weakest. If the list intended to show what order individuals were in solely on the height of their powers, then it would be very different than at their lowest.


Sorry The 1,000th Reader, but Turin didn't stab Glaurung while he slept, he did it as the worm crossed a ravine, after he had been sleeping.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I get the feeling that the Morgul Lord would have beaten a large hound. Also, just because a character is a maia doesn't mean they win. Just look at Sauron. Finally, Turin climbed up a gorge and stabbed Glaurung in the stomach while he slept.

and

You're assuming here that Huan is a Maia, while there's no text supporting that idea, as far as I know.

That "large hound" defeated the Morgul Lord's master, Sauron. There's no question Sauron was immeasurably superior to the WK even in the Third Age, during which he was greatly reduced from his original non-incarnate form of the First Age before the making of The One Ring. Huan was greater than any non-Maiarin being of the Third Age, period. Read about him again.

And while I admit that Tolkien did go back and forth about Huan's original nature (Maia vs. 'special beast') the Maiarin origin is the most likely considering these points: Huan formulated his own thoughts in his heart (Sil.), rather than parroting those of others or being a sort of puppet to another's will; Huan defeated Sauron, as well as a mega-beast that was saturated with Morgoth's mojo; it is said of Huan that "no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength could overthrow [him]." Additionally, there is Tolkien's footnote to Myths Transformed (in which he debates the nature of the Eagles and Huan) that says "As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)" Tolkien's words, not mine. In any case, since this discussion is not about Huan's nature exactly, but rather about his relative power, I'll reiterate my suggestion to go read about him again and then tell me what "feeling" you get.

WK was not going to be slain by any "man" - wouldnt that default him above at least all the human males? What about elvish males?

No, because this prophecy had nothing to do with power, just a prediction of events. Just because Glorfindel predicted that the WK wouldn't be slain by a living Man (and I believe this prophecy refers to the maker of the Blade of Westernesse rather than Eowyn) does not mean that no Man had the power to overcome him.

Or, if you include objects, then consider others - the Watchers, Orthanc, the Mirror of Galadriel, etc etc.

And especially the Silmarils.

Sorry Obloquy but to have the list with all sorts of minor beasties on, and not Arwen, after all she is the daughter of Elrond and grand-daughter of Galadriel, she must have some power; more than a lot of the humans on the list. In saying all that, it is never apparent, we can only assume by her lineage and teachings at Rivendell, that she has power, surely she didn't spend all day lounging around like some bored little princess. If she did have power, where on the list would Elladan and Elrohir come?, who must surely have had special training.

She may have some level of power, but what did she ever accomplish that gives us any sort of reading on that power? As far as we know, she was a housewife with fabulous cooking skills.

A lot of the people on this list would be difficult to place exactly in relation to others of similar spiritual stature. I suggest moving to a bracket format wherein varying degrees of power are recognized within a bracket without requiring those beings to be sorted when it's impossible to gauge them against one another.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by obloquy

That "large hound" defeated the Morgul Lord's master, Sauron. There's no question Sauron was immeasurably superior to the WK even in the Third Age, during which he was greatly reduced from his original non-incarnate form of the First Age before the making of The One Ring. Huan was greater than any non-Maiarin being of the Third Age, period. Read about him again.

And while I admit that Tolkien did go back and forth about Huan's original nature (Maia vs. 'special beast') the Maiarin origin is the most likely considering these points: Huan formulated his own thoughts in his heart (Sil.), rather than parroting those of others or being a sort of puppet to another's will; Huan defeated Sauron, as well as a mega-beast that was saturated with Morgoth's mojo; it is said of Huan that "no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength could overthrow [him]."

It seems to me, Obloquy, that you rate Huan's power a little too highly. The passage in the Silmarillion dealing with Huan and Sauron's fight definitely presents Huan as the victor- but the fight ends in a stalemate: Sauron cannot escape without abandoning his body, and so being weakened in a way not dissimilar to the loss of the Ring during the Siege of Barad-dûr. However, here is the text:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

But no wizardry or spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor; and he took his foe by the throat and pinned him down. Then Sauron shifted shape, from wolf to serpent, and from monster to his own accustomed form; but he could elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body entirely.

Call me a fool, perhaps, but reading this passage does not suggest to me that Huan was necessarily more powerful than Sauron, but that he succeeded in getting the upper hand in the fight- an upper hand he may well not have had, were Sauron not to have thought to make Huan's "Death by Greatest Wolf" prophecy come true in person. Had Sauron attacked in his own form, or some other form, the outcome might have been very different.

Next, notice that Huan does not- or, I theorize, cannot- kill Sauron. Sauron cannot escape him without grave humiliation, but Huan does not kill him. It is Lúthien, later on in the same paragraph, who threatens him with being stripped of his flesh, and being sent back to Angband a naked spirit, suggesting that this power lies in Lúthien, not Huan.

A final point to note about the fight between Huan and Sauron is that Sauron started out with a disadvantage:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

Then Sauron sprang upon Lúthien; and she swooned before the menace of the fell spirit in his eyes and the foul vapour of his breath. But even as he came, falling she cast a fold of her dark cloak before his eyes; and he stumbled, for a fleeting drowsiness came upon him. Then Huan sprang.

Huan does not attack Sauron until he has stumbled and been distracted, giving him an edge.

Again, call me a fool if you like, but reading about the fight tells me one thing: it took both Huan and Lúthien to beat Sauron. Before Sauron was cornered by Huan, Lúthien could not threaten him with the division of fëa and hröa- in fact, she fainted at his attack. Likewise, Huan could not defeat Sauron, only deprive him of the victory, and he was aided by Lúthien's cloak, and by Sauron's own choice to attack him in Werewolf form to fulfill the prophecy.

I respectfully submit to the littlemanpoets of the jury that Sauron be placed above Lúthien and Huan.

[drigel]

No, because this prophecy had nothing to do with power, just a prediction of events.

I agree - it didnt imply power. It was a prophecy, not an utterance of doom, or command of fate.

Just because Glorfindel predicted that the WK wouldn't be slain by a living Man (and I believe this prophecy refers to the maker of the Blade of Westernesse rather than Eowyn) does not mean that no Man had the power to overcome him.

uncoventional thinking there. I wouldnt go that far. But, to me, it doesnt really matter how you interpret the prophecy or truth soothing,

..Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.

the WK did indeed not fall by the hand of man, and there were plenty of chances by numerous men to fell the WK.

Like the Huan example, the difficulty is in quantifying entities who are special and unique, and have, apart from magical or supernatural abilities, also may have dooms or fates that are of... a more.... divine nature that supercede anything else.

Apples to apples it would be Sauron over Huan. Lordliness, skills over nature and technology, powers of command, etc.
Apples to oranges it would be Huan over Sauron. Put them both in the Thunderdome, one on one, and it would be Huan having the mastery, as it was related in the Silm. And thats with (IMO) Sauron having personal powers that far exceeded what he had in the 2nd or 3rd ages.

And especially the Silmarils.

especially especially the Two Trees

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by drigel

Apples to apples it would be Sauron over Huan. Lordliness, skills over nature and technology, powers of command, etc.
Apples to oranges it would be Huan over Sauron. Put them both in the Thunderdome, one on one, and it would be Huan having the mastery, as it was related in the Silm. And thats with (IMO) Sauron having personal powers that far exceeded what he had in the 2nd or 3rd ages.

As I said in my last post... I disagree.

Huan had an advantage at the start of the fight that was not related to either his strength or Sauron's. I refer, of course, to Lúthien's cloak, which she brushed past him as he attacked. Furthermore, Sauron did not utilize his full abilities in battle, but rather changed form and attacked as a Werewolf, hoping to fulfill the prophecy about Huan.

Had Sauron attacked as himself, or maybe as an oliphaunt or something, the outcome could have been different. And, yes, the prophecy would have been nullified- but since Sauron DIDN'T, Huan went on to die at Carcharoth's jaws.

It's very analogous to the Witchking situation. Had Glorfindel and the Witchking fought during the fall of Arnor, it's entirely possible that the Witchking would have been destroyed then and there. But they didn't, so we are left with the "not by hand of man shall he fall"- which is, of course, what happens. But this does not mean that Glorfindel (or Eärnur, for that matter) COULDN'T have defeated the Witchking, but that they DIDN'T.

So, although I acknowledge the fact that Huan was a very impressive beast, and probably worth more than the Fëanorian lord he served, and that he was definitely a challenge for Sauron, I don't think that one-on-one he could have taken Sauron down. He needed Lúthien's help just as Lúthien needed his.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

blah blah blah

Actually, Formendacil, I agree with you (mostly--your excuses for Sauron are weak, in my opinion*) and I never suggested putting Huan above Sauron. All I said was that he was more powerful (by far) than the Witch-King. Sauron obviously belongs near the top of the Maiar bracket, and Huan somewhere amidst it or near its bottom--it's tough to say exactly. My points about Huan were just that 1) he was likely a Maia and 2) he was considered especially mighty on a First Age level which means he was mightier than nigh all that lived in the Third Age, excepting those other Maiar and maybe one or two Eldar. The same goes for Hurin and Turin. They were studs of First Age proportions.

Additionally, some Eldar ought to be inserted into a special bracket that places them parallel to the Maiar. Luthien was obviously exceptionally powerful, perhaps ranking among Olorin, Sauron, Melian, and Curumo. Glorfindel I would say was less powerful, though he could stand his ground against a Balrog and thus deserves to be ranked near them. Feanor, Galadriel, Finrod, Thingol, Finwe, Fingolfin and Finarfin (in approximately this order perhaps) should be placed only slightly below Luthien (who was the greatest of all the Children). You might add Olwe and Ingwe as well, except that we can only guess that their kingship was a result of a certain high degree of power on their part.

Here's an interesting thread (involving myself and Formendacil, incidentally) about power levels among the Umaiar.

*

Had Sauron attacked in his own form, or some other form, the outcome might have been very different.

What form of defense might Sauron have employed that did not include wizardry or spells, fangs or venom, devil's art or beast-strength?

Next, notice that Huan does not- or, I theorize, cannot- kill Sauron. Sauron cannot escape him without grave humiliation, but Huan does not kill him.

At this point in Sauron's existence, forcing him to abandon his shape is as close as anyone can get to 'killing' him. His spirit can only be truly destroyed by Eru, and he's not yet incarnate to the point of any sort of death being permanent.

but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly.

This makes it clear that the power Sauron could not elude was Huan's, not Luthien's. The next line is

ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Luthien came to him...

So his only option was to abandon his body (death) until Luthien provided him the opportunity to be released on the condition that he give his tower to her.

[drigel]

nice points!

I understand the point of Luthien's contributions, but I also think that Sauron's tactics were employed to instill fear, and not with the knowledge that he had to assume a certain form in order to slay the hound. I submit that he had no knowlege of, or took little heed to, the prophecy concerning Huan. And certainly had no (or little) knowlage Huan's nature:

....no wizardry or spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor

until well into the fight. That means no fear in Huan of Sauron's manifistations or magic in my book.

I still lean towards the hound, but would place Sauron above him in the master list, if that makes sense. But that's just me, I suppose. I would argue that Huan was a greater agent (handling much higher stakes) for Eru than Gandalf was.

Had Glorfindel and the Witchking fought during the fall of Arnor, it's entirely possible that the Witchking would have been destroyed then and there.

Who is to say that he didnt have the chance to, but avoided the confrontation? I would think in all those years, he must have had a shot or two.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by drigel

here's another rub to the list that I havent thought until now - the power of fate or doom (or prophecy), as it incorporates with the characters ... any entity having hostile actions towards Huan before the wolf encounter would be dealing not only with Huan, but also with the doom that was bound to to that hound dog. ... Or, if you include objects, then consider others - the Watchers, Orthanc, the Mirror of Galadriel, etc etc.

All of this is very much to the point, drigel. Well done!

Originally Posted by narfforc

Another problem to occur is that of double entries, or in the case of Olorin/Gandalf the Grey/White, triple.

I'm okay with this. I think the multiple entries helps to delineate what we're talking about because in a story characters cannot be static. Some rise, others fall. It could be argued, however, that Fëanor, for example, never lessened at all, but the power of the Oath overwhelmed him .... which is saying something rather important since he is "the greatest of the Children of Iluvatar" (Sil, p. 96).

Originally Posted by obloquy

Additionally, there is Tolkien's footnote to Myths Transformed (in which he debates the nature of the Eagles and Huan) that says "As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)"

Warning: potential Tolkien heresy ahead: I distrust Tolkien's latter day (1965-1973) theologizing and philosophizing about his Legendarium, especially as he was rethinking the whole thing from a round world mythos starting point. However, your quote in this instance seems reasonably fairminded (out of context, since I don't have the tome [and don't want it but have read it]).

Originally Posted by obloquy

... this prophecy had nothing to do with power, just a prediction of events.

Hello?!? Since when does prophecy not have to do with power? Since when is "just a prediction of events" ... "just a prediction"? Prophecy is ALWAYS a phenomenon involving power - power of the word. Who spoke it? That person and his/her source of knowledge must be factored into an understanding of the power wielded in order to fulfill the prophecy.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I respectfully submit to the littlemanpoets of the jury that Sauron be placed above Lúthien and Huan.

So noted. Sound reasoning that is true to the texts wins out.

Updated List

[Thalion]

Can someone explain how the Blue Istari are placed above Radagast? I gotta believe Radagast places higher than 2 wizards who are never fully described...seeing as how there is very little on the Blue Istari under those names and we have at least that Radagast has some power over Birds, Animals, ect..., he should rank higher...

Alternatively, if Olorin and Gandalf get different entries, then Alatar and Pallando should be different entries than blue Istari and these should be ranked accordingly...but since there isn't much on Alatar, Pallando, OR Blue Istari (except that the Blue Istari failed in their mission because they presumably went into the East and never came into the story again), and there is at least some power residing in Radagast over birds/beasts/ect, then he should still rank higher

[Aiwendil]

While I agree with those who have argued that this kind of list is ultimately impossible to reasonably construct, a few points do seem quite wrong to me in the list.

First, I agree with Thalion about Radagast. Why is he placed so low? He should be roughly as high as the other Istari; and I would place him above the Blue Wizards. Of course, the place of the Blue Wizards themselves can be no more than an uninformed guess, since we have no real information about them.

Second, why is Beren lower Aragorn? I would place him roughly on par with Hurin and Turin. For that matter, Tuor (who is missing from the list) should be on about that level as well.

Third, why is Arwen so high? As far as I can tell, her "power" consists entirely of beauty and banner-weaving ability.

Fourth, I think Ungoliant ought to be higher. She is a strange and unique figure in the Legendarium, and she seems (to me, at least), to have a kind of profound, primordial power. Consider that she almost defeated Morgoth before the Balrogs came to his aid.

That brings us to Morgoth. It seems to me that if we distinguish between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White, we ought also to distinguish the primordial Melkor from the pseudo-historical Morgoth, who had divested himself of most of his power and was even wounded by Fingolfin.

I also don't understand why the Balrogs are not higher; nor why Frodo is as high as he is.

[Legolas]

Ungoliant appears to be more powerful than Ancalagon, though I don't know of any characteristics of the two that we can compare. Morgoth struggled with Ungoliant and could not control her. Would he have struggled with Ancalagon if he turned against him?

Third, why is Arwen so high? As far as I can tell, her "power" consists entirely of beauty and banner-weaving ability.

Apparently she was also a good cook (per oblo's post). On a serious note, she is overrated in my estimation - I definitely would not place her above the three wizards (or even Hurin, Turin, Beren maybe?).

Is Galadriel truly the most powerful of the Noldorin royal line?

[Thalion]

Fourth, I think Ungoliant ought to be higher. She is a strange and unique figure in the Legendarium, and she seems (to me, at least), to have a kind of profound, primordial power. Consider that she almost defeated Morgoth before the Balrogs came to his aid.

I'm not entirely sure where I would place Ungoliant, but I think there is something that is being lost here in the discussion of her battle with Morgoth. When Morgoth was almost defeated by Ungoliant, it was because she had within her the light of the two trees of Valinor..., the light gave presumably immense power that combined with her "natural" strength/power/ability was nearly too much for Morgoth (reminiscent somewhat of Carcharoth when he had the Silmaril in him)

When making a determination of where to place Ungoliant, it should therefore be noted that her placing on the list should be deminative of what I would deem her "natural power", not that as it was magnified as a result of the light of the trees within her...

[Lalaith]

Legolas, Tolkien says Galadriel was

the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe,though she was wiser than he

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Thalion

I'm not entirely sure where I would place Ungoliant, but I think there is something that is being lost here in the discussion of her battle with Morgoth. When Morgoth was almost defeated by Ungoliant, it was because she had within her the light of the two trees of Valinor..., the light gave presumably immense power that combined with her "natural" strength/power/ability was nearly too much for Morgoth (reminiscent somewhat of Carcharoth when he had the Silmaril in him)

When making a determination of where to place Ungoliant, it should therefore be noted that her placing on the list should be deminative of what I would deem her "natural power", not that as it was magnified as a result of the light of the trees within her...

I agree in general, Thalion, that Ungoliant's position on the list should be made with the her normal abilities in mind, but those normal abilities would appear to be fairly large to begin with.

Let us first look at Shelob, Ungoliant's offspring. Shelob is a pretty fearsome creature. Sam had the luck to be carrying a Gondolin-wrought sword on which Shelob was foolish enough to impale herself, but it says right there in the text that any other sort of assault would have been pretty much futile. "Not though the hand of Beren, Húrin, or Túrin wielded it" says the text, more or less.

Therefore, Shelob is a pretty fearsome creature. How much moreso, therefore, should Ungoliant be? After all, just as the Spiders of Mirkwood are the offspring (or so it appears) of Shelob and males of lesser stature, I seem to recall it being said that Ungoliant mated with lesser males, thus producing children- of which Shelob is one.

Therefore, if we assume a similar disparity of power between Ungoliant and Shelob as between Shelob and her offspring, we get a pretty powerful being indeed.

Personally, I should place Ungoliant just below the Balrogs- or possibly above, since the case could be made that it took all of them to drive her off, and that one of them couldn't have done so alone.

[Legolas]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Legolas, Tolkien says Galadriel was

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. I recalled this quote - 'A sister they had, Galadriel, most beautiful of all the house of Finwë' - but nothing else to be found in The Silmarillion. Also, didn't see Fëanor above her. Fëanor and Finrod would've been my candidates.

[Thalion]

A number of notes:

1) In noting that all other species differentiate between a leader and all others generally, I think ENTS should be broken into ENTS and Treebeard, Treebeard's placing directly above all other Ents...small but somewhat (in)consequential

2) Why does Balin deserve placing above Thorin, whom for awhile he was subserviant to?

3) Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are very far apart on the list...again, what is the rationale? I think since they are both enigmas of Tolkien's work, they should be placed relatively close together...

4) Regarding the Ring and future placement of the Silmarils...I think one shouldn't place these on the list at all...the list looks to be one of living characters, the Ring may be considered the "essense" of Sauron, but thats still NOT Sauron...just as the Silmarils are the "embodiment" of the two trees, but they are not the two trees...if you include the two trees of valinor on this list, then yes, you should include the silmarils, and then by conjecture, you could include the Ring...but since I don't think there is any intention of including the two trees of Valinor (I personlly see this as silly), I think by the same logic you shouldn't include either of the other two...specifically, the Ring reflects the power that wields it (albiet with an evil/Sauron twist)...it isn't an entity unto itself...

5) Beren is listed lower than Aragorn? Aragorn may be the savior of Gondor, but Beren cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown...additionally, he was able to pass through the Girdle of Melian...he prowess seems a little low on the list

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Thalion

Can someone explain how the Blue Istari are placed above Radagast?

Good point. And welcome to the Downs.

Originally Posted by Thalion

I think ENTS should be broken into ENTS and Treebeard.

Done.

Originally Posted by Thalion

Why does Balin deserve placing above Thorin, whom for awhile he was subserviant to?

Though subservient to Thorin, my reading of TH and LotR show Balin as more noble of character.

Originally Posted by Thalion

Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are very far apart on the list...again, what is the rationale?

Tom is lord of his realm whereas Goldberry is a river-daughter and rises to become Tom's spouse; beautiful and pucent in her own realm, yes, but that realm is small (her home and its surroundings).

Originally Posted by Thalion

Regarding the Ring and future placement of the Silmarils...I think one shouldn't place these on the list at all.

I'm persuaded, and have changed my "guiding principle" accordingly.

Originally Posted by Thalion

Beren is listed lower than Aragorn?

No longer. Thanks for your excellent points, Thalion.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

why is Beren lower Aragorn?

noted.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

why is Arwen so high?

By deduction from heredity. But I'll grant that she doesn't exhibit this; although Tolkien says that she is the image of Luthien. What does that count for?

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

we ought also to distinguish the primordial Melkor from the pseudo-historical Morgoth

Done.

Shelob is raised as recent arguments reflect.

I'm debating with myself whether there's really a difference between Olórin and Gandalf the White. I'm not sure there is.

Updated List

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by lmp

...Bilbo still would be superior to one spider, perhaps in combat, but most certainly in culture and moral superiority. (#67)

Though subservient to Thorin, my reading of TH and LotR show Balin as more noble of character.(#106)

Nobility of character, cultural superiority, and general moral fiber are difficult metrics. If you factor these in, aren't you obliged to bump the likes of Morgoth, Fëanor, Sauron, and Saruman (for starters) down the list a ways for their social and moral defects? Furthermore, I can't see what Trolls are doing so far up the list considering they have even less culture than orcs, apparently; all they have going for them is size, strength, and an amusing accent.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I'm debating with myself whether there's really a difference between Olórin and Gandalf the White. I'm not sure there is.

You're unaware of the difference between a Maia in its natural incorporeal form and one that has been fully incarnated in the form of an old man?

Here's how I would design the list:

RED: [gods - Valar] *Melkor; *Manwe

RED-ORANGE: [unknown] Ungoliante? Tom Bombadil?

ORANGE: [angels - Maiar] *Eonwe; Arien; *Sauron; *Olorin; Melian; Curumo; Gothmog; Huan

ORANGE: [demigods - Eldar] *Luthien; *Galadriel; *Feanor; Glorfindel; Ecthelion; Galdor?

ORANGE: [creatures - Dragons and Others] *Ancalagon; Glaurung; Carcharoth; Smaug; Draugluin

YELLOW: [heroes - Eldar, Atani, Dwarves] *Hurin; Turin; Tuor; Beren; Thrain; Aragorn

GREEN: [the children - Elves, Men/Hobbits, Dwarves] Celeborn; Boromir; Legolas

BLUE: [lesser humanoids - Orcs]

BABY BLUE: [beasts]

Colors indicate possible overlaps between categories. For example, Ungoliante might be considered more powerful than some Valar. Another example is Ancalagon and Glaurung being on par with the Maiar, perhaps. Rankings in each bracket are more or less approximate, except where marked by an asterisk, which indicates that the individual is fairly certainly in the correct position (usually the top positions of the tier). Obviously my list isn't as extensive as yours, but I don't necessarily think it should be. Some things go without saying, and many individuals are impossible to gauge.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Nobility of character, cultural superiority, and general moral fiber are difficult metrics. If you factor these in, aren't you obliged to bump the likes of Morgoth, Fëanor, Sauron, and Saruman (for starters) down the list a ways for their social and moral defects? Furthermore, I can't see what Trolls are doing so far up the list considering they have even less culture than orcs, apparently; all they have going for them is size, strength, and an amusing accent.

I suppose we could quantify everything, but that might just take the fun out of it for a lot of us. Not to mention the mystery.

"Intelligence consists of (1) speech (2) tool usage (3) et cetera...."

(1) speech: +0 for no speech; +1 for 1 to 1000 word vocab; +2 for 1000 to 10,000 word vocab, et cetera.
(2) tool usage: +0 for none; +1 for 1 tool; +2 for two tools, etc.
(3) ad nauseum.....

blah.

Originally Posted by obloquy

You're unaware of the difference between a Maia in its natural incorporeal form and one that has been fully incarnated in the form of an old man?

No. I am not unaware of this. It was my understanding that the Maiar who entered Arda clothed themselves in corporeal forms of one kind or another. Do you mean to tell me that Maiar in Valinor live there incorporeally?

[obloquy]

No. I am not unaware of this. It was my understanding that the Maiar who entered Arda clothed themselves in corporeal forms of one kind or another. Do you mean to tell me that Maiar in Valinor live there incorporeally?

Yes. At least, they can, and it is written that Olorin in particular often did. Clothing oneself in material raiment is very (in fact, crucially) different than incarnation. The Istari were incarnate, meaning they could be slain as any Man or Elf, and could not simply shed their bodies if they tired of them.

[Formendacil]

Obloquy is correct that the Istari were a special form of Maiar Incarnate. Although all Ainur who descended into Arda had the power to take forms, which most did, it was natural for the Valar and Maiar to not be bound to a certain form. Indeed, the permanence of the forms of Morgoth, the Balrogs, and Sauron after the Fall of Númenor, appears to be tied directly to the fact that they are evil.

However, when the Valar sent the Istari to Middle-Earth, the Istari did not just take a form LIKE the Children of Eru, as they were accustomed to doing. Instead, they took a form that was the SAME as that of the Children of Eru. In so doing, they became, in a pure physical sense, old men. The only extraordinary thing about them was their incredible longevity. Apart from this, such special traits as they had, such as wisdom or a certain magical talent, while not exactly common, were still found in the Children of Eru- particularly those of Elven race.

The power of the Istari is a veiled power- it is not the raw might of the Maiar. This was a part of the intention of the Valar, for they had learned well the great lesson of the Second Age: Men do not like to be forced to do things. Instead of being sent to Middle-Earth to lead the fight against Sauron, they were sent to HELP the fight against Sauron.

For this reason, although Gandalf and Saruman may well, singly or together, have been able to take Sauron on in a battle as Maiar, once in Middle-Earth they were forced to work in more circuitous ways. Not all power was gone from them, to be sure, but they were rather tightly constricted in what they were able to do.

That said, this entire plan of the Valar failed. Saruman turned to evil, the Blue Wizards vanished, Radagast was distracted, and Gandalf died.

At this point Eru stepped in, and decided to make use of Gandalf. He restored him to full life, granted him authority previously given to Saruman, and returned him to Middle-Earth. It also seems apparent that he removed some of the restrictions that had formerly bound the Istari.

As Gandalf tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in Fangorn, none of their weapons could harm him. Although this statement can be interpreted a number of ways, it seems clear that Gandalf was no longer a mere old man in terms of his physical presence. It seems clear that he had to keep himself, as before, rather in the background, aiding the fight rather than leading it, but it is also clear that many of the actions he undertakes as Gandalf the White he COULD not have undertaken as Gandalf the Grey. More importantly, neither could Saruman.

This is important, because it demonstrates the changed parameters within Gandalf could move. Even as Gandalf the White, he was inherently, in his native Maia strength, probably no greater than Saruman- who had been appointed the White for good reason. However, he clearly seems to be able to operate under much less constraint than even Saruman had done under the original orders of the Istari.

So, the question is, and I leave it to the debating teams to get the mental juices started, whether or not Gandalf the White returned to Middle-Earth able to use ANY and ALL of his native Maiarin powers, and chose not to (for whatever reasons), or whether he returned to Middle-Earth with authority to act more broadly than before, but still not in the freedom he would have enjoyed in Valinor.

If the former is the case, then Gandalf the White and Olórin are one and the same in terms of power. If the latter, then Gandalf the White is a step above Gandalf the Grey and Saruman, but a step below Olórin.

[narfforc]

I agree with everything Formendacil says, and he ties up much of the Gandalf/Maiar problem quite nicely. On the question of The Return of Gandalf, I believe Tolkien says, he returned with enhanced sanctity. Was this because the Valar had seen the fall of Saruman into evil, and Radagast become distracted, that they wished Gandalf to have more ability to combat these weakness's, in this case does sanctity mean free from sin?. Doesn't Tolkien say of The Istari: clad in the bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, maybe Gandalf the White returned with less of these problems to worry him, giving him more purity to his inherent power.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

...

Originally Posted by narfforc

I agree with everything Formendacil says, and he ties up much of the Gandalf/Maiar problem quite nicely. On the question of The Return of Gandalf, I believe Tolkien says, he returned with enhanced sanctity. Was this because the Valar had seen the fall of Saruman into evil, and Radagast become distracted, that they wished Gandalf to have more ability to combat these weakness's, in this case does sanctity mean free from sin?. Doesn't Tolkien say of The Istari: clad in the bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, maybe Gandalf the White returned with less of these problems to worry him, giving him more purity to his inherent power.

There's no reason to believe he came back less incarnate than he was originally. He still employed Shadowfax for travel rather than shedding his corporeal raiment and traveling on the spiritual plane, even when speed was critical. In fact, there's not even any indication that his mandate had changed: he evidently still was not allowed to throw fireballs at mortals and shrivel them with his eyes. I theorize that the enhancements given consisted of the authority to break Saruman, a revitalizing through rebirth (he had been incarnate for many centuries and was no doubt weary), and the new provision that he could use all power necessary to protect himself from death, so he didn't have to bend over and take it like he did from the Balrog.

Here's some more reference on the topic:
Ëalar and Incarnation
The Ainur and their physical forms
The Powers of the Istari
gandalf and sarumon

[narfforc]

Who said he came came back less incarnate???????????

[obloquy]

whether or not Gandalf the White returned to Middle-Earth able to use ANY and ALL of his native Maiarin powers, and chose not to (for whatever reasons),

In order to use all of his powers as a Maia, Gandalf must necessarily be in his natural eala form--or closer to it. All powers of a Maia are not available to them when they are bound to a corporeal form, so unless he was less incarnate as the White, this is not a possibility. I have taken for granted my own belief that Gandalf Incarnate (both Grey and White) has always had the same power accessible to him, and his restraint was voluntary and submissive to the Powers that sent him.

[Thalion]

Since Gandalf says specifically he represents "Saruman as he should have been", it seems that Gandalf the White still falls short of Olorin...Saruman as he should have been would not have shown his full might as that of a Mair...neither would then Gandalf the White...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by obloquy

That "large hound" defeated the Morgul Lord's master, Sauron. There's no question Sauron was immeasurably superior to the WK even in the Third Age, during which he was greatly reduced from his original non-incarnate form of the First Age before the making of The One Ring. Huan was greater than any non-Maiarin being of the Third Age, period. Read about him again.

I've read all of that and I stand by what I said. I agree with For and I have also stated that "just because your a maia doesn't mean you win." Huan beating Sauron doesn't make him stronger than all maia, it just means that he beat Sauron. Even then, that was because Sauron chose to attack the harmless woman on the sideline rather than the deadly hound that had just dropped its guard and cowered away from him. That choice got Sauron a face full of magical cloak and then a neck full of teeth.

[Legolas]

Huan beating Sauron doesn't make him stronger than all maia,

I think the point was not "Huan is stronger than all Maiar" - it was "Huan is stronger than the Witch-King." The Witch-King is not a Maia. He is a man, corrupted and made super-scary by Sauron's magic. Huan defeated Sauron, and Sauron was undisputedly greater than the Witch-King.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Legolas

Huan defeated Sauron, and Sauron was undisputedly greater than the Witch-King.

Yes, but Sauron was crippled and made a stupid choice. He also wasn't in his "regular" form. Just because Sauron botched his fight terribly doesn't mean that the Witch-King can't pin Huan to the ground.

[littlemanpoet]

After reading the various well argued points on Gandalf the White as compared to Olórin, it seems to me that both manifestations should be represented. While I think Formendacil makes strong points in terms of Gandalf the White's status in terms of sanctity, it seems to me that Gandalf's own words to Aragorn and company clear up the matter.

Updated List