orcs and goblins- what's the difference???

[deal_with_it]

Originally Posted by Thalion

Since all Orcs/Goblins are perversions of Elves by Morgoth for the sole purpose of doing his bidding in mockery of Elves, I don't see how Orcs/Goblins would have come to NOT listen to their master, as we have no evidence throughout any of the works that this would have occured

What was the Great Goblin that recognized Orcrist and Glamdring? Thats as about as close as I saw in his works to a Goblin (orc) king, other than Bolg who led the Goblin Army in the Battle of Five Armies, but Bolg was just the leader (or the strongest goblin), not necessarily a king. Is that right?

[Firefoot]

A couple of pieces:

"Most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies."

A Journey in the Dark, FotR

Obviously, they're pretty much just called Goblins in TH.

Azog caem forth, and he was a great Orc...

Appendix A, III

"Thror was killed, you remember, in the mines of Moria by Azog the Goblin."

An Unexpected Party, TH

This same guy is called both an Orc and a Goblin - and he's a big Orc, too, so I don't think you can argue Goblins are smaller.

I don't think that a strong, text-based argument can really be made for Orcs and Goblins being different.

What was the Great Goblin that recognized Orcrist and Glamdring? Thats as about as close as I saw in his works to a Goblin (orc) king, other than Bolg who led the Goblin Army in the Battle of Five Armies, but Bolg was just the leader (or the strongest goblin), not necessarily a king. Is that right?

The Great Goblin appears to be a king, even if not in name (I don't remember if he's ever called that or not). But it seems fairly typical that where Orcs/Goblins are living on their own (i.e., not as Sauron's/Morgoth's slaves), they have some sort of leadership - The Great Goblin, Azog, Bolg - there even seems to be some kind of history behind Shagrat and Gorbag where they were some kind of leadership. And I think that Ugluk would be somewhat of a leader whether or not he was made so by Saruman.

[Morsul the Dark]

yes well although obviously they originated the same way goblins and orcs are now two unique groups that can be set apart easily goblins are smaller not because they're wimpy but rather so they need less food which is scarce in the mountains while it was said earlier orcs are bigger because sauron was pumping them up.

since ohobbits and men were originally we not interchange thier names all the time... Aragorn was a large hobbit that walked with long strides.

doesn't sound right does it?

just because they started out the same doesnt mean they still are!

Kuruharan

The term "goblin-soldiers" was applied to Saurman's Uruk-hai. I think that proves as much as anything possibly could that the terms "orc" and "goblin" were synonymous as far as Tolkien's world goes.

There were four goblin soldiers it does noit refer to all but rather four seeing as uruks were goblins and orcs comnbined it makes sense that some would look more like goblins than orcs.

if they are trully the same try to explain why goblins and orcs all of sudden uruk-hai

if there is anything that proves that they are different its the fact that when combined they make a crazy hybrid

[deal_with_it]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

yes well although obviously they originated the same way goblins and orcs are now two unique groups that can be set apart easily goblins are smaller not because they're wimpy but rather so they need less food which is scarce in the mountains while it was said earlier orcs are bigger because sauron was pumping them up.

since ohobbits and men were originally we not interchange thier names all the time... Aragorn was a large hobbit that walked with long strides.

doesn't sound right does it?

just because they started out the same doesnt mean they still are!


There were four goblin soldiers it does noit refer to all but rather four seeing as uruks were goblins and orcs comnbined it makes sense that some would look more like goblins than orcs.

if they are trully the same try to explain why goblins and orcs all of sudden uruk-hai

if there is anything that proves that they are different its the fact that when combined they make a crazy hybrid

Refer to Message #13

AND from the same site:

"Uruk-hai, The great soldier-Orcs of the later Third Age
Dates: First seen in c.III 2475
Race: Orcs
Pronunciation: ooroo'k-high
Meaning: Literally, 'Orc-people', a name from the Black Speech
Other Names: Great Orcs, Uruks

The great soldier-Orcs that first appeared in the late Third Age; they were larger and stronger than their forebears, and could withstand the light of the Sun. "
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp

And to quote your own words ... How or where did you get that goblins and orcs were separate creatures and that Uruks were a hybrid of the two. I've never heard that before. I was just curious how or where you got that from.

I won't even address how Aragorn is a big hobbit.... ?!?!

[Firefoot]

yes well although obviously they originated the same way goblins and orcs are now two unique groups that can be set apart easily goblins are smaller not because they're wimpy but rather so they need less food which is scarce in the mountains while it was said earlier orcs are bigger because sauron was pumping them up.

Sorry, Morsul, but you're not convincing me. Do you have any textual proof to back this up? Everything I have seen definitely points to the two being the same.

[The Saucepan Man]

It is generally accepted that Orcs and Goblins are one and the same race, and all the textual evidence points that way, as has been noted in this thread already.

I do, however, still picture Goblins as a particular type of Orc - smaller and better suited to living communally in caves and tunnels - because that is the way that I imagined them when I first read the books.

And I see no reason why Orcs should not come in all shapes and sizes. I rather liked that aspect of the films - the portrayal of different Orc types, and particularly the differentation between the Orcs of Moria with their large cat-like eyes (better suited to darkness?) and the larger fighting Orcs of Mordor and Isengard.

Uruk Hai are also a particular type of Orc (Uruk means Orc), bred (first by Sauron, not Saruman) for strength, aggression and resistance to sunlight, as the piece from the Encyclopaedia of Arda quoted above indicates.

Half-Orcs and Goblin-Men are mentioned, I think, only in reference to the Army of Isengard and it is to be presumed that they were the result of cross-breeding between Men and Orcs by Saruman. Whether there was a difference between the two is not clear, although the use of two different terms might suggest that there was.

[Thalion]

since ohobbits and men were originally we not interchange thier names all the time... Aragorn was a large hobbit that walked with long strides.

Aragorn was never a hobbit...TROTTER was a hobbit, and if I remember correctly, it wasn't Tolkien was finished with the tale that he basicaly realized he needed/wanted/should/discovered that Trotter was in fact Aragorn, and that he should be called Trotter.......additionally, Tolkien never says that hobbits became me or vice versa...although this is alluded to in the cartoon version of Return of the King...

As for Orc/Goblin...I suffice it to say that most of the preceeding entries have covered it

[Farael]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Uruk Hai are also a particular type of Orc (Uruk means Orc), bred (first by Sauron, not Saruman) for strength, aggression and resistance to sunlight, as the piece from the Encyclopaedia of Arda quoted above indicates.

I might be mistaken, but I understood that Uruk were the rather biggish fighting orc types created by Sauron and Uruk-hai were the "improvements" by Saruman.

I might be mistaken, but I can't go check my books right now... if anyone has the time, you may want to look when Frodo and Sam have escaped Minas Morghul and two orcs that were hunting for them approach. One was a smaller breed, sort of like a tracker while the other was a bigger one and I believe the small one called him an "Uruk". If anyone wants to check, I'll appreciate it, if not I guess I'll have to when I have the time.