Relative Powers

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Thalion

2) Since Gandalf the Grey was felled by a "regular" Balrog, I think its only fair to put Gothmog above Gandolf the Grey...just a small point, maybe up for contention

Thing is, Tolkien tells us that Gandalf allowed himself to be killed so as not to violate the guidelines of the Istari, while still ensuring that the Balrog did not survive to cause further trouble. Tolkien's comments indicate that Gandalf (even as "the Grey") was capable of handling the Balrog much more decisively than he did.

[Thalion]

Thing is, Tolkien tells us that Gandalf allowed himself to be killed so as not to violate the guidelines of the Istari, while still ensuring that the Balrog did not survive to cause further trouble. Tolkien's comments indicate that Gandalf (even as "the Grey") was capable of handling the Balrog much more decisively than he did.

What are you referencing? One of the HoME? Unfinished Tales Essay on Istari?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Thalion

What are you referencing? One of the HoME? Unfinished Tales Essay on Istari?

Letter # 156 paragraph 4 is what I'm referencing specifically.

For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.

In other words, he allowed himself to die in submission to the rules of the Istari; had he disobeyed those rules, he evidently could have prevented his own defeat.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by obloquy

In other words, he allowed himself to die in submission to the rules of the Istari; had he disobeyed those rules, he evidently could have prevented his own defeat.

This, however, is exactly the reason that Gandalf the Grey is a seperate entity from Olórin. The Rules which caused Gandalf to die were the very rules that, as one of the Istari, he had to follow in Middle-Earth. Without the rules, yes, he would have probably been able to deal without the Balrog with much greater ease, but he wouldn't have been Gandalf the Grey, he would have been Olórin of Valinor.

It was the Rules that defined Gandalf the Grey. Therefore, what Gandalf the Grey was capable of is dependent on the Rules.

I therefore support the position that Gothmog, Chief of the Balrogs, should be placed ahead of Gandalf the Grey.

[Legolas]

Is there any reference that anybody else knows of as to the nature of this second Gothmog? I fear that I was influenced by a certain Avalon Hill LotR game which named one of the Nazgúl "Gothmog". I thought that perhaps they based this decision on some authoritative documentation. My mistake.

There are several threads here that argue Gothmog's race - orc, man, Nazgul, etc. To me, the safest conclusion is that he was not a Nazgul because he was never explicitly stated to be one.

EDIT: But it occurs to me that Lúthien never made it to Valinor (except for the Halls of Mandos which don't exactly count), so cannot be considered as one "of Valinor". Therefore, I take the liberty of leaving her at a superior position to Galadriel. I recall now that my original reason for holding her as above even Fëanor, was that she was born of the union of Thingol, one of the three Eldest of the Eldar, and of Melian the Maiar. Being half-Maiar places her above any other Eldar, seems to me.

That's what the 'Greatest of the Eldar' thread oblo linked to above points out. Tolkien speaks of Feanor and Galadriel as the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, and notes that Luthien is the greatest of all the Eldar:

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

[Lalaith]

Oh, I quite agree about Luthien. Mary Sue she may have been, but we have to take the Professor at his word.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

This, however, is exactly the reason that Gandalf the Grey is a seperate entity from Olórin. The Rules which caused Gandalf to die were the very rules that, as one of the Istari, he had to follow in Middle-Earth. Without the rules, yes, he would have probably been able to deal without the Balrog with much greater ease, but he wouldn't have been Gandalf the Grey, he would have been Olórin of Valinor.

It was the Rules that defined Gandalf the Grey. Therefore, what Gandalf the Grey was capable of is dependent on the Rules.

I therefore support the position that Gothmog, Chief of the Balrogs, should be placed ahead of Gandalf the Grey.

Sure, I concede the point about Greynerd being ranked lower than Gothmog. I just couldn't let Gandalf be dissed for dying to an 'ordinary Balrog.'

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Thalion

what I think everyone missed in that thread is what does the word "greatest" mean..

Excellent point. Quotes pointing out levels of "greatness" cannot be used directly to determine levels of "power". They are two different words. As The Barrow-Wight said on another thread, according to his dictionary Luthien being the "greatest" means that she was the "largest" of the elves.

[the phantom]

I skimmed the thread as best I could, and I didn't happen to spot one of my favorite quotes from the Silmarillion. So, here it is. And if it's already there and I just missed it, it can't hurt to read it again.

For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.

In other words, Feanor should remain very very high on the list, no matter what arguments others come up with.