Relative Powers

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by obloquy

In other words, he allowed himself to die in submission to the rules of the Istari; had he disobeyed those rules, he evidently could have prevented his own defeat.

This, however, is exactly the reason that Gandalf the Grey is a seperate entity from Olórin. The Rules which caused Gandalf to die were the very rules that, as one of the Istari, he had to follow in Middle-Earth. Without the rules, yes, he would have probably been able to deal without the Balrog with much greater ease, but he wouldn't have been Gandalf the Grey, he would have been Olórin of Valinor.

It was the Rules that defined Gandalf the Grey. Therefore, what Gandalf the Grey was capable of is dependent on the Rules.

I therefore support the position that Gothmog, Chief of the Balrogs, should be placed ahead of Gandalf the Grey.

[Legolas]

Is there any reference that anybody else knows of as to the nature of this second Gothmog? I fear that I was influenced by a certain Avalon Hill LotR game which named one of the Nazgúl "Gothmog". I thought that perhaps they based this decision on some authoritative documentation. My mistake.

There are several threads here that argue Gothmog's race - orc, man, Nazgul, etc. To me, the safest conclusion is that he was not a Nazgul because he was never explicitly stated to be one.

EDIT: But it occurs to me that Lúthien never made it to Valinor (except for the Halls of Mandos which don't exactly count), so cannot be considered as one "of Valinor". Therefore, I take the liberty of leaving her at a superior position to Galadriel. I recall now that my original reason for holding her as above even Fëanor, was that she was born of the union of Thingol, one of the three Eldest of the Eldar, and of Melian the Maiar. Being half-Maiar places her above any other Eldar, seems to me.

That's what the 'Greatest of the Eldar' thread oblo linked to above points out. Tolkien speaks of Feanor and Galadriel as the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, and notes that Luthien is the greatest of all the Eldar:

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

[Lalaith]

Oh, I quite agree about Luthien. Mary Sue she may have been, but we have to take the Professor at his word.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

This, however, is exactly the reason that Gandalf the Grey is a seperate entity from Olórin. The Rules which caused Gandalf to die were the very rules that, as one of the Istari, he had to follow in Middle-Earth. Without the rules, yes, he would have probably been able to deal without the Balrog with much greater ease, but he wouldn't have been Gandalf the Grey, he would have been Olórin of Valinor.

It was the Rules that defined Gandalf the Grey. Therefore, what Gandalf the Grey was capable of is dependent on the Rules.

I therefore support the position that Gothmog, Chief of the Balrogs, should be placed ahead of Gandalf the Grey.

Sure, I concede the point about Greynerd being ranked lower than Gothmog. I just couldn't let Gandalf be dissed for dying to an 'ordinary Balrog.'

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Thalion

what I think everyone missed in that thread is what does the word "greatest" mean..

Excellent point. Quotes pointing out levels of "greatness" cannot be used directly to determine levels of "power". They are two different words. As The Barrow-Wight said on another thread, according to his dictionary Luthien being the "greatest" means that she was the "largest" of the elves.

[the phantom]

I skimmed the thread as best I could, and I didn't happen to spot one of my favorite quotes from the Silmarillion. So, here it is. And if it's already there and I just missed it, it can't hurt to read it again.

For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.

In other words, Feanor should remain very very high on the list, no matter what arguments others come up with.

[Thalion]

Well this will be the second time I attempt to post this as the first one timed out on me...grrr...

For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.

This passage, finally supplied by the phantom, speaks to the "greatness" of Feanor...when so many often say that Feanor is the greatest in a particular character aspect such as metalurgy or works of hand this passage lends them credibilty...not only that but it even characterizes Feanor as "mightiest...in beauty" a character trait often described of Galadriel or Luthien...

...this is not the importance of this passage, per say...its importance is to lend crediblity that Feanor is the "mightiest" or "greatest" in certain catagories...this question is often posited in response to the passage concerning Luthien being the "greatest of the Eldar"...people ask "greatest in what"...and the correct answer is essentially..."not in anything in particular, just the greatest" since Tolkien doesn't qualify this statement...but he does quality the statements about Feanor...which lead us to believe possibly that Luthien is the greatest elf of all...

...but to do so would not necessarily be to take the entire quotion in the correct context...I repeat it here one more time for argument:

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

The crux of this statement is "WHAT DOES GREATEST MEAN?!"...this question defines the statement...how you answer it will alter your beliefs as to what placement Luthien deserves amongst the elves.......as I've said multiple times before, defining "greatness" can be to say "of most renown" or "most famous"...to define "greatness" in this way would no way place Luthien atop a list of the highest in relative powers, but yet it would be an accurate description of the passage presented above...I say this because the alternate definitions of "greatness" that I provided can be gathered from the Oxford English Dictionary, which gives not concrete definitions of things, but rather contextual definitions to provide readers with alternative uses of a word as authors have used it over time...while this may not be greatly important, what is important is that Tolkien was a writer to this dictionary at one point in his life...this means he was chiefy aware of alternative definitions to words...including such words as "greatest"...

...additionally, a definition of "greatest" as "of most renown" or "most famous" is outside a proper reading of the passage above...the passage speaks of the history of elves and which elves concern their history most chiefly...this means that to call Luthien the "greatest" in this context could very well mean that she is in fact the elf to which tales telll the most about or to which legends most often speak about...legends may speak about Luthein more often than others for various reasons including that her tale with Beren is a bittersweet tale with a somewhat happy ending(?), that it is important for understading the history of the Elves (and later Numenoreans) or that is the most beautiful tale when sung in Quena or Sindarian and that they enjoy hearing it most just as some of us prefer to watch certain movies over and over (or read certain books...cough cough....Tolkien works....cough cough) because they are most entertaining...this doesn't mean that she had more power than other elves simply that the Lay of Luthien would be the "greatest tale" of the elves because it speaks of lmany emotions including love, despair, hope, ect...

...lastly, and least we not forget...Luthien is most chiefly written to be Tolkien's wife...so there is obviously some author's prejudice here...although I do not argue with what Tolkien wrote, I simply mean to say that understanding this may create a greater understanding why she may be accounted amongst the very highest echelon of elves...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thalion

The crux of this statement is "WHAT DOES GREATEST MEAN?!"...this question defines the statement...how you answer it will alter your beliefs as to what placement Luthien deserves amongst the elves.......as I've said multiple times before, defining "greatness" can be to say "of most renown" or "most famous"...to define "greatness" in this way would no way place Luthien atop a list of the highest in relative powers,

I think the issue is one of context. What did Tolkien mean by saying both Feanor & Luthien were 'greatest'?

Tolkien states at different times that Frodo, Sam & Aragorn was the 'hero' of LotR. Clearly they can't all have been the hero - simply that at different times Tolkien considered one to be the hero, at other times he considered another to fulfil that role. But in terms of context a statement may be qualified by what isn't stated

In Appendix F we find the 'clear' statement about Elves:

They were tall, fair of skin & grey-eyed, though their locks were dark save in the golden house of Finarfin.

Now, CT has stated in BoLT1:

Thus these words describing characters of face and hair were actually written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar: indeed the Vanyar had golden hair, and it was from Finarfin's Vanyarin mother lndis that he, and Finrod Felagund and Galadriel his children, had their golden hair that marked them out among the princes of the Noldor. But I am unable to determine how this extraordinary perversion of meaning arose.

Because of this, in the revised 50th anniversary text the editors (Hammond & Scull) add the following note to LotR:

These words describing characters of face & hair in fact applied only to the Noldor.

So, what we have is an apparently clear statement about the physical attributes of the 'Eldar' as a whole, but which in fact only applies to the Noldor. Whether this failure to distinguish between the Noldor & the Eldar as a whole applies in the case of Luthien vs Feanor is probably impossible to answer, but certainly it might be true to say that while Luthien was the 'greatest' of the Eldar, Feanor was the 'greatest' of the Noldor (unless we give that crown to Galadriel). Yet, Luthien was not strictly 'Eldar, but half-Eldar-half Ainur.

Let's not forget that Tolkien often made 'poetic' statements about characters & events as well as strictly 'factual' ones. And once we introduce the 'Translator Conceit' we have to ask which 'writer' within the Legendarium wrote which statement. There are a number of 'contributors' to the Legendarium, from Pengolodh to Bilbo, & one could speculate that they may have had their own particular biases.

I think this alone shows that we must be very careful about simply trying to trump each other with quotes....

[narfforc]

Davem makes a good point concerning the translator. At one point Feanor is 'Mightiest in beauty', then Luthien is considered the most beautiful of all the Children of Iluvatar. Feanor is 'Mightiest in valour, then Fingolfin is the most valiant. My problem is that Fingolfin was valiant in facing Morgoth in battle, how valiant was Luthien then?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by davem

I think the issue is one of context. What did Tolkien mean by saying both Feanor & Luthien were 'greatest'?

Tolkien states at different times that Frodo, Sam & Aragorn was the 'hero' of LotR. Clearly they can't all have been the hero - simply that at different times Tolkien considered one to be the hero, at other times he considered another to fulfil that role. But in terms of context a statement may be qualified by what isn't stated

In Appendix F we find the 'clear' statement about Elves:



Now, CT has stated in BoLT1:



Because of this, in the revised 50th anniversary text the editors (Hammond & Scull) add the following note to LotR:



So, what we have is an apparently clear statement about the physical attributes of the 'Eldar' as a whole, but which in fact only applies to the Noldor. Whether this failure to distinguish between the Noldor & the Eldar as a whole applies in the case of Luthien vs Feanor is probably impossible to answer, but certainly it might be true to say that while Luthien was the 'greatest' of the Eldar, Feanor was the 'greatest' of the Noldor (unless we give that crown to Galadriel). Yet, Luthien was not strictly 'Eldar, but half-Eldar-half Ainur.

Let's not forget that Tolkien often made 'poetic' statements about characters & events as well as strictly 'factual' ones. And once we introduce the 'Translator Conceit' we have to ask which 'writer' within the Legendarium wrote which statement. There are a number of 'contributors' to the Legendarium, from Pengolodh to Bilbo, & one could speculate that they may have had their own particular biases.

I think this alone shows that we must be very careful about simply trying to trump each other with quotes....

I've seen these points before. The problem with your argument is that the note about Luthien being the greatest of all the Eldar is actually attached to a statement about Feanor and Galadriel being the greatest of the Noldor. In other words, Tolkien did not forget about one or the other, nor did he confuse his terms.