orcs and goblins- what's the difference???

[Firefoot]

yes well although obviously they originated the same way goblins and orcs are now two unique groups that can be set apart easily goblins are smaller not because they're wimpy but rather so they need less food which is scarce in the mountains while it was said earlier orcs are bigger because sauron was pumping them up.

Sorry, Morsul, but you're not convincing me. Do you have any textual proof to back this up? Everything I have seen definitely points to the two being the same.

[The Saucepan Man]

It is generally accepted that Orcs and Goblins are one and the same race, and all the textual evidence points that way, as has been noted in this thread already.

I do, however, still picture Goblins as a particular type of Orc - smaller and better suited to living communally in caves and tunnels - because that is the way that I imagined them when I first read the books.

And I see no reason why Orcs should not come in all shapes and sizes. I rather liked that aspect of the films - the portrayal of different Orc types, and particularly the differentation between the Orcs of Moria with their large cat-like eyes (better suited to darkness?) and the larger fighting Orcs of Mordor and Isengard.

Uruk Hai are also a particular type of Orc (Uruk means Orc), bred (first by Sauron, not Saruman) for strength, aggression and resistance to sunlight, as the piece from the Encyclopaedia of Arda quoted above indicates.

Half-Orcs and Goblin-Men are mentioned, I think, only in reference to the Army of Isengard and it is to be presumed that they were the result of cross-breeding between Men and Orcs by Saruman. Whether there was a difference between the two is not clear, although the use of two different terms might suggest that there was.

[Thalion]

since ohobbits and men were originally we not interchange thier names all the time... Aragorn was a large hobbit that walked with long strides.

Aragorn was never a hobbit...TROTTER was a hobbit, and if I remember correctly, it wasn't Tolkien was finished with the tale that he basicaly realized he needed/wanted/should/discovered that Trotter was in fact Aragorn, and that he should be called Trotter.......additionally, Tolkien never says that hobbits became me or vice versa...although this is alluded to in the cartoon version of Return of the King...

As for Orc/Goblin...I suffice it to say that most of the preceeding entries have covered it

[Farael]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Uruk Hai are also a particular type of Orc (Uruk means Orc), bred (first by Sauron, not Saruman) for strength, aggression and resistance to sunlight, as the piece from the Encyclopaedia of Arda quoted above indicates.

I might be mistaken, but I understood that Uruk were the rather biggish fighting orc types created by Sauron and Uruk-hai were the "improvements" by Saruman.

I might be mistaken, but I can't go check my books right now... if anyone has the time, you may want to look when Frodo and Sam have escaped Minas Morghul and two orcs that were hunting for them approach. One was a smaller breed, sort of like a tracker while the other was a bigger one and I believe the small one called him an "Uruk". If anyone wants to check, I'll appreciate it, if not I guess I'll have to when I have the time.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Farael

I might be mistaken, but I understood that Uruk were the rather biggish fighting orc types created by Sauron and Uruk-hai were the "improvements" by Saruman.

As I noted above, Uruk simply means Orc. I believe that it is the word for Orc in the Black Speech, although I am not certain of that. It is generally used as an attentuated reference to Uruk-Hai.

Uruk-Hai were bred by Sauron, although Saruman also used them. The misconception that Saruman bred the Uruk-Hai comes, I believe, from the films.

The tracker Orc in Mordor is referred to as Snaga, which is a term used to refer to smaller Orcs. It comes from the Black Speech for "slave". Snaga seems to be a term of abuse, used by larger Orcs, rather than a separate "breed" of Orc.

[Thalion]

This should settle it:

Letters #131: To Milton Waldman:

[Tolkien is speaking about the end of the 1st age and how the history of middle earth plays out]

"Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed."

We can gather from this sentence that Tolkien considered the terms interchangable? to a degree as he clearly puts goblins in paraenthesis after Orcs...however, we also know that he was more fond of the term Orc rather than goblin, but none-the-less...they are the same thing...

Additionally, and more importantly, Letters #144: To Naomi Mitchison:

"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used asa translation in The Hobbit , where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech."

Again, Tolkien himself uses the words interchangable, specifically saying that the translation used in Hobbit was mostly goblin, but once orc...the same creature

[Thalion]

Check out this thread for additional information regarding this...

[Morsul the Dark]

for the record the aragorn is a tall hobbit thing was a swipe at the "orcs and goblins were originally the same and therefore still are" theory

that is to say hobbits according to the text may have been originally a type of man so since they were once the same race according to orc-goblin logic they still are the same race.(it was a joke i of course was being sarcastic)

Everyone says there is little room for evolution and yet we see some men evolved into hobbits and also orcs(if we are to believe urks are just new versions of them as are goblins) also evolved into different categories. so either they are two different races or they have evolved....which is it?

so the word is interchanged every so often big deal.

It still stands that although they may be of the same race they are different subspecies

this thread by the way is one of the many many places goblin+orc=uruk-hai is mentioned

most notably

Originally Posted by Aerandir Carnesir

Willie, I agree with you for the most part, but I think goblins and orc were different. The goblins seem to be smaller(at least in the movies) than regular orcs. They were more cave dwellers. But they are very much the same. Saruman made the Uruk-Hai by cross-breeding Orcs and Goblin men. I'm not sure, but how can you get an entire breed of new orcs by using the same breeds to breed them? There's a difference, but I don't think that it's very big.

also more on the line(because youi'll all attack that by sayings its the movie not the book since its PJ's interpretation someone thinks thats what happened)

anyway more on the line is the relative powers list

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Formendacil, -
Elf
Uruk hai
Warg
Human
Dwarf
Orc
Gollum
Goblin
Hobbit
Spider

would you look at that goblins and orcs listed sepretely why would they do that if they're the same race hmmm....