Survivor: The Second Age

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Trying to get us to bandwagon against her, eh, Form?

Not this time...

Maybe I'm trying to make it look like I want her voted off in hopes that people will leave her on, because I actually DO favour a Tar-Míriel win.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Oh well. At least Galadriel didn't win. I'm pretty happy about that. Nice job, Formy. I suspected your prediction was meant to get rid of her, and so I wisely kept silent and let things take their course.

Sometimes the simplest plans are the best...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

The whole Ring thing would've happened with or without Celebrimbor, and he had no part in the One Ring's creation, thus no blame can be placed on him.

Wrong again, my dear phantom. No doubt your misunderstanding is attributable to Feanorophile induced short-sightedness, but you really must stop looking at the matter through those Noldor-tinted spectacles.

Sauron conceived the plan to create the One Ring, yes. He forged the thing himself, yes. But the whole scheme relied upon the Gwaith-i-Mírdain falling for his Annatar guise sufficiently that they listened to what he had to teach them about ringcraft. Had their vanity and greed for knowledge not led them to do so, then they would not have learned how to make such nice little trinkets. Without the Elven Rings being made, there was little point in Sauron going through with his plan and so he would not have bothered putting all his eggs into the One Ring basket.

So, but for Celebrimbor and his pals falling for Sauron's little trick (as a direct result of their own failings), there would have been no One Ring.

Oh, and if you think the Elven Rings so great, you have Sauron to thank for that. It was his teachings that enabled Celebrimbor to craft them. Without Sauron's help, he would never have had the skill to make them himself.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

However no One ring is not the same as no Sauron.

In some ways it is. But for the One Ring, Sauron could have been defeated through one concerted effort. It was the Ring that anchored him to Arda and allowed him to return every time that he was physically overcome.

And the Ring wasn't such a bad scheme, by the way. He would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for that pesky hand of Eru ...

[the phantom]

No doubt your misunderstanding is attributable to Feanorophile induced short-sightedness

Feanorophile I may be, but in this case she has nothing to do with my opinion. Fea hasn't even posted on this thread in quite some time. In addition, I... oh... you mean the other Feanor.

In that case, then yes, yes, I am biased and I do indeed like Celebrimbor more than I should simply because of who his grandfather was. I readily admit that. But that doesn't mean I'm not speaking truth.

But the whole scheme relied upon the Gwaith-i-Mírdain falling for his Annatar guise sufficiently that they listened to what he had to teach them about ringcraft.

Yes, and your point? If Celebrimbor wasn't there, all those other smiths would still be there, and so nothing would have changed. Annatar would've tutored them just as he did and they would've made rings, only not as good as the ones Celebrimbor made. Also, without his expertise and sensitivity to the rings the elves likely would not have been aware of Sauron's plot until it was too late. But the way it turned out, Celebrimbor perceived Sauron's designs in the nick of time and sent the three great rings away to be hidden and not used while Sauron possesed the master ring.

So, I believe I have proved once again that Celebrimbor's role in the whole ring affair yielded extremely positive results.

Without the Elven Rings being made, there was little point in Sauron going through with his plan

Yes, there was little point in going through with his Ring plan, err... except for the little bit about the Ring making him indestructable. But of course, that's a minor point. Rendering yourself immune to destruction isn't worth anything at all, is it? No way. Of course not. The Ring was only useful as a device to control the Elven rings. Sure.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by TP

But the way it turned out, Celebrimbor perceived Sauron's designs in the nick of time and sent the three great rings away to be hidden and not used while Sauron possesed the master ring.

His one saving grace. But it was hardly a positive - more like trying to make (partial) amends for his original idiocy. It does not undo his own contribution to the creation of the One Ring.

Originally Posted by TP

Yes, there was little point in going through with his Ring plan, err... except for the little bit about the Ring making him indestructable.

Sauron conceived the whole One Ring scheme in an effort to gain control of Middle-earth and enslave its peoples. The creation of the (other) Rings of Power were an intrinsic part of that scheme.

Possibly, had Celebrimbor not allowed Sauron to do him up like a kipper, Sauron would have gone ahead and tried to make a Ring, or something similar, anyway. But that is a hypothetical, and we cannot be sure what the consequences may have been. Perhaps, without the unwitting collaberation of the Mirdain, it would have failed, or been an inferior model. We just don't know. But what we do know is that Celebrimbor's foolish pride directly contributed to the creation of the One Ring.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I actually DO favour a Tar-Míriel win.

Whoa dude, slow down. Now, I know that it's been hard for you that Galadriel left and you've been drinking the pain away and you see no other solution, but going after another girl will just make things worse.


Trust me.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I didn't fall for your obvious trick, Form, it was a matter of strategy.

For Tar-Míriel to have a chance of winning, I must help eliminate the actual heroes of the Second Age. Love is blind--well, perhaps extremely biased.

Oooh, some spider's gonna give it to you.

No, dancing spawn, I'll explain. In a PM.

Oh, and my vote:

++Celebrimbor

For falling for the most pathetic world takeover attempt in the history of everything--again, no offence to Tolkien for writing it that way.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

So has a plague wiped out all
the Survivors?

[Diamond18]

I think Form has asperations for this Day to last a week, Tuor.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

I think Form has asperations for this Day to last a week, Tuor.

Not quite... I've just been forgetful, that's all.

Well, I also hoped for a FEW more votes at such a late- and supposed to be dramatic- point in the game, but I guess that's too much to hope for.

ToDay ends NOW. The official post will be up soon...