Relative Powers

[Legolas]

This list is based on the all of the works we have this far. I don't perceive anything else being published. It is useless to throw out quotes because he may have contradicted them in unpublished writings. This matter is not contradicted by anything else we have, so there's no question - it is the way things were in Middle-earth according to JRR, which is what we're looking for in this thread.

[littlemanpoet]

What would you think of opening the list up to votes?

My thought is to pick one of the more debated personages, and request nominations, with backing evidence, to be laid out. After the nominations have been collected (and seconded?), I can start a temporary poll thread on that particular personage, and after perhaps a week or two, close the poll and modify the list accordingly.

Or would we prefer just to discuss things and have me make my best fallible conclusions?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

What would you think of opening the list up to votes?

My thought is to pick one of the more debated personages, and request nominations, with backing evidence, to be laid out. After the nominations have been collected (and seconded?), I can start a temporary poll thread on that particular personage, and after perhaps a week or two, close the poll and modify the list accordingly.

Or would we prefer just to discuss things and have me make my best fallible conclusions?

Hey, as long as the Witch-King is kept appropriately humble, I think I can keep my mouth shut on the rest.

Sorry to sound snippy above, davem. I've just said all I think can be said on the matter.

[Thalion]

Two things:

Originally Posted by obloquy

The quote supplied by the phantom about Feanor's might was from within the narrative and at a time when Luthien did not yet exist.

The first tales of Luthien existed in 1917 (BoLT2, p3 (The Tale of Tinuviel)...I believe before Feanor was thought up (or discovered )

The only books you can quote from are The Hobbit and LotR, the rest was work in progress.

I think that is far stretch...if we can only quote for the the Hobbit and the LoTR, this is a rather short list with nearly no mention of 1st age elves and not much concerning peoples of the 2nd age......I think although CT did edit the Silmarillion and may have in fact included alternate versions of things (he clearly favors latter versions of the tale of Turin), I wouldn't venture to say that we can't trust anything except that which Tolkien published in his own lifetime...as a perfectionist, Tolkien himself didn't think he was finished with LoTR when he published it, but the publishers were demanding a book...besides, even if Tolkien had the lift of an elf, it is doubtless that his tales would ever be finished entirely as he was always in the process of re-writing...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Thalion

The first tales of Luthien existed in 1917 (BoLT2, p3 (The Tale of Tinuviel)...I believe before Feanor was thought up (or discovered )

I didn't mean before Luthien was conceived by Tolkien; I meant before she was conceived by her parents.

[the phantom]

The quote supplied by the phantom about Feanor's might was from within the narrative and at a time when Luthien did not yet exist.

Luthien did exist at the time. She was born when "the glory of Valinor was at its noon", where as the quote is from the passage mentioning Manwe's grief at Melkor's marring of Feanor, after Feanor and the Noldor have set off for Middle Earth.

The quote definitely includes her.

But I don't think the quote necessarily conflicts with the "Luthien is the greatest" quote. As Thalion has brought up more than once, what does "greatest" mean? What did Tolkien have in mind? It is very possible that there are some components such as popularity and renown wrapped up in "greatest".

For instance, it could be said that Star Wars is the greatest movie of the 20th century. Star Wars was absolutely huge! It sold gobs of tickets, mountains of merchandise, and featured cutting edge details and special effects (when it came out). It resulted in five more blockbuster movies, books, comics, fan clubs, toy collections, conventions, and fan websites. No one would argue if someone wrote in a book that Star Wars was the greatest movie force of the century.

However, that does not mean Star Wars, when compared to the other movies in the century, had the best writing, directing, acting, sound, visuals, sets, or anything else. In other words, it doesn't mean that Star Wars was the "best" film.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Tolkien saying Luthien was the "greatest" does not mean that she was more "powerful" or "talented" than Feanor any more than it means that she would beat Feanor in a game of billiards. Tolkien didn't say that. He only said she was the "greatest".

Feanor, on the other hand, got some extremely specific praise.

For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.

That quote is almost too ridiculous to believe. It's overwhelming. It says that the King of Arda, Manwe, is the only one who can even begin to comprehend the things Feanor was capable of. I mean... wow!

All of this next part is a rambling opinion of a sleepy biased phantom, so feel free to ignore it-

I have always gotten the feeling that Feanor was the most powerful/talented/whatever in Tolkien's world, but that Tolkien simply didn't like him as much as Luthien and Galadriel, and so did what he could to put them on level with Feanor. As we know, Luthien was Tolkien's wife, so he obviously favored her, and we've also discussed on this forum Tolkien's increasing Galadriel worship as he aged. This certainly influenced his writings.

From deeds and such it seems clear to me that Feanor was superior, and I think Tolkien knew it. When he wrote the quote I supplied, I think it was a moment when he was reluctantly admitting Feanor's unfathomable power- I don't recall seeing any quote of that magnitude about the others, probably because Tolkien, despite his love for them, couldn't bring himself to write things that were distorted beyond the normal amount of author bias.

When you consider Tolkien's feelings towards Luthien and Galadriel, I think it is not just likely, but a guarantee, that he favored them more than he should have in some of his writing. Anyone who has ever written stories or RPGed much can certainly understand this point. If a character within your story sort of represents you or a dear friend, you tend to give them more credit than they really should have.

[narfforc]

I was not saying that we should pack up and go home, we should carry on as normal, however I state again, quoting from anything not published during Tolkiens lifetime cannot be done with absolute certainty. A lot of arguments go back and forth until they descend into bickering, and then things get a bit heated. I just wanted to say that quoting from HoME can be very dangerous, some people may think that its the truth, in the same way the films have muddied the waters. As I said before, try to keep in mind when quoting anything:

1. Was this Tolkiens final word on the matter, ie: was it published whilst alive.

2. Are there any other versions that may contradict the matter.

3. Are there any other statements that may contradict the matter.

The reason I put number three in is because I would ask you, Who is the most beautiful of the Children of Iluvatar?

Tolkien states on one hand that Feanor is, then he says that Luthien is. Then there are other statements:

1. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar.

2. Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and wise of heart.

3. Galadriel, most beautiful of all the house of Finwe..

How many contradictions are there in that lot.

Carry On Quoting.