Relative Powers

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The translator conceit is one that Tolkien put into the work in order to create a feigned reality. That he succeeded is proved by how similar our discussing behavior is to that of theologians and historians. At the risk of seeming heresy, as the theologians who discuss the Christian Bible acknowledge one Author, so must we. Thus the translator conceit is a level of complexity, in fact a kind of game, that doesn't necessarily obtain for the purposes of this thread.

So are you saying we should discount any qualitative statements Tolkien makes, or that we should take them all into account - even when they contradict each other?

And I'd say that the TC cannot be left out of any analysis of the Legendarium. Its far more than merely a 'kind of game' - unless you conside sub creation as a whole a kind of 'game'.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I can see the Four Horsemen of Canonicity approaching over the horizon...

Saucepan neatly sidesteps one gaping can of worms and promptly falls into another ...

As regards the Feanor debate, I would repeat a question that I posed (and comment that I made) earlier:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Does "power" include self-control? If so, Feanor should definately be lower. Turin too, probably.

Feanor's talents in many fields are undoubted. It is clear that he was an immensely powerful chap. But it also cannot be denied that he was incredibly lacking when it came to self-restraint. There are many examples of the adverse consequences, for himself and his kin, of his feiry hot headedness. The question is whether this simply represents a misuse of his undoubted power, or whether it in itself diminishes his power.

I am not talking here in terms of his morality and the negative consequences of this for others. Although a number of his deeds were of dubious morality, that in itself is not a reason to move him down the "power list", as it does not seem that we are holding the moral failings of Morgoth and Sauron against them. What I am considering is how his failings negatively impacted upon himself and his family. His Oath blighted his life and the lives of his sons. His rash pursuit of Morgoth led to his premature demise. These were consequences of his very nature, not simply the manifestations of his power. So can it not be said that, taken as a whole, his "power level" is diminished by his impetuous and hot-headed nature?

There are others, Luthien and Galadriel included, who, while lacking in his raw power, chose their courses of action more carefully, and in a more measured way. In many ways, perhaps, they were wiser. Should this not be considered as an aspect of "power"?

[Thalion]

There are others, Luthien and Galadriel included, who, while lacking in his raw power, chose their courses of action more carefully, and in a more measured way.

I think by going down this route you will be "knocking down a peg" a lot of Elves...first and foremost practically ever Noldor, or at least all those who followed Feanor...even Galadriel we are given at times to believe left Valinor because of her loath for Feanor and a desire to make sure he failed in his quest in Middle Earth (although thats simply this person's interpretation...I have a feeling, that it will still much contention)...and Fingolfin "rashly" charged to the gates of Angband...Fingon allowed his troops to move forward against the hosts of Angband too soon when Gwindor charged first...Thingol 'forces' Beren to go to Angband to get a Silmarill for his daughters hand...all of these cases (and more) can be considered rash decisions or more biased towards personal feeling or without much thought put into them...

[Formendacil]

Another point regarding the "rash" business....

LMP started this thread with a "who could whup whom?" sort of idea in mind. And while he's since taken more into account than mere physical strength/power, one should probably still keep in mind that "greatest" as being measured on this list, is ultimately "who could whup whom".

Fëanor, in my opinion, could probably "whup" either Lúthien or Galadriel- either physically, or in terms of persuasiveness and force of will. Or, at least, he'd probably be the best at it of the three. I don't think that he could actually persuade or dominate either Lúthien or Galadriel- but neither could either of them do the same to him.

[Thalion]

Especially if one considers that much (or most) of the original history to have come from prose or song, then translated (and translated again and again etc.), one can easily get mixed messages as to who is "greatest".

The problem with this argument is that in reality, the stories WERE NOT PASSED DOWN...Tolkien, for as much as he claimed to have "discovered" elements of his tales and to have been working on how they came to be in existence today when the history was supposed to take place years and years ago, created every story that we have from his own mind... he may have made revisions, but one can hardly consider that as the same as passing down stories from generations to generations...and again...Tolkien, as a philologist, choose his words carefully...since he was ulitmately the one writing the "final" stories as we would see them (or as he was working on them to become final) he wasn't restrained to believe whatever a past "story teller" communicated to him...

...as much as Tolkien wanted a mythology that incorporated elements of many of the tales we have today in various cultures, we must remember that his works didn't actually form the trunk from which all these various branches with similar elements came from...therefore, the work of this one man is what we are to consider...

[drigel]

the same as passing down stories from generations to generations....

I wasnt implying "generations" (these were elves after all), I was implying possibly 3-4 levels. This is all off topic (sorry LMP). An example could be:
prose (original) / history (TC)
narrative (TC)
translation (from elvish to "westron" - Bilbo/Frodo)
and again translated from "westron" to early english (Aelfwine).
Or, any other combination. Granted, the effect may work only for me, and I tip my hat to the author. My point wasnt particularly TC, but the "commissioned artist's Conciet" of the subject.

and again...Tolkien, as a philologist, choose his words carefully...since he was ulitmately the one writing the "final" stories as we would see them (or as he was working on them to become final) he wasn't restrained to believe whatever a past "story teller" communicated to him..

I would say that history, as written by different authors of different races and cultures, spanning ages lost long ago, was exactly the point of the works. And if you really subscribe to the above idea, then only TH and LotR are the only sources you can refer to in building a list, as those were the published works that were considered "final" by the author.

[the phantom]

There are others, Luthien and Galadriel included, who, while lacking in his raw power...

There's no need to go further than that, Sauce. I think raw power is what we're looking for, not virtues.

lmp, since this is your thread why don't you tell me, would a good description of what you are looking for be sheer amount of knowledge, strength of will, number of skills, strength of skills, ability to impact mind and matter, and ability in battle?

Not to mention, SPM, that Luthien was rash as well. She disobeyed her father and left the safety of Doriath to chase Beren, and almost paid dearly for her actions (Celegorm and Curufin).

Everyone acts unwisely under extreme circumstances, and Feanor's were arguably the worst any elf ever faced. He loved his father more than any son loved his father, he created the greatest work of skill ever- the Silmarils, and both his father and the Silmarils were stolen from him in a single day. That, coupled with Morgoth's efforts to corrupt him, was more than an elf could handle. After all, the Valar themselves told the Noldor as they left that they did not have the power to contest with Morgoth. If true, then surely there was no way Feanor could've remained unaffected by Morgoth's attempts to corrupt him, especially when you consider that marring Feanor was Morgoth's primary goal.

Morgoth was the most powerful being ever created by Eru, and so I find it difficult to hold the unfortunate events that followed against Feanor as much as many of my fellow Downers do. In my opinion, Feanor's fall was inevitable the instant the Valar allowed Morgoth to roam free and Morgoth resolved to ruin Feanor.

Fëanor, in my opinion, could probably "whup" either Lúthien or Galadriel- either physically, or in terms of persuasiveness and force of will. Or, at least, he'd probably be the best at it of the three.

I agree.

Luthien may have had Feanor eating out of her hand, if the sight of her could enflame lust in one of the most powerful beings in Arda, then I am afraid Feanor could have been vunerable to.

I doubt Feanor would be as vulnerable as Morgoth in this area. Feanor seems to love above all else things that were of himself- his father, his sons, and his crafts. If he had molded and sculpted Luthien from stone and she then came to life, I can imagine he would have quite a bit of love for her, but even then I doubt she'd have him eating out of her hand. He wasn't the sort to allow someone else to master him. Not to mention he already had a wife, and elves are by their nature not prone to straying.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thalion

The problem with this argument is that in reality, the stories WERE NOT PASSED DOWN...Tolkien, for as much as he claimed to have "discovered" elements of his tales and to have been working on how they came to be in existence today when the history was supposed to take place years and years ago, created every story that we have from his own mind... he may have made revisions, but one can hardly consider that as the same as passing down stories from generations to generations...and again...Tolkien, as a philologist, choose his words carefully...since he was ulitmately the one writing the "final" stories as we would see them (or as he was working on them to become final) he wasn't restrained to believe whatever a past "story teller" communicated to him...

I think the point is that the TC was a central concept for Tolkien. As far back as the BoLT a primary concern was not simply the stories themselves but the means by which those stories had survived, had been transmitted from the time of the events they recorded down to the time he himself translated them for a modern readership. His model, as Flieger shows in 'Interrupted Music' was the ancient texts like the Mabinogion (taken from the Red Book of Hergest among others - & that title being the same as the one he gave Bilbo's work is probably not a coincidence). Ancient stories survived down through time in place names, manuscripts, folklore & songs, as we know, but most importantly they survived in varying versions, many of which were contradictory.

It is this illusion of verisimilitude which Tolkien strove to create in order to bring a sense of 'reality' to the stories of the Legendarium. A careful reading of LotR, for instance, will reveal that there are various 'styles' incorporated in that work (the passages referring to the Rohirrim for example are full of alliteration) this gives a sense that LotR is a 'compendium' (there's also a mention in the text of 'Findegil the King's scribe' who is one in a series of 'compilers/redactors' in a long sequence of transmission).

Moving on to the Notion Club Papers we see Tolkien trying a different method of transmission - psychic(memory) & physical (reincarnation).

The cetral importance of this aspect for Tolkien can be seen in the very fact that he introduces himself into the Legendarium as 'translator'. He 'appears' in the story both in the Prologue & in Appendix F. This both makes him part of the secondary world he has created &, paradoxically, separates him from it in that he becomes not the maker of the stories but merely the last one who passes them on. So they become not Tolkien's mythology, but England's. He's effectively saying 'This is not my my mythology, its ours. So, as Flieger has so effectively shown, there have to be 'discrepancies', 'contradictions' in the text. These don't make the Legendarium less 'believable' as Myth, but actually more so, because they make it just like the genuine myth/legend cycles we have.

In short, the contradictions are inevitable, necessary & most importantly deliberate. Think of all the named writers, loremasters & bards within the Legendarium. These are individuals, producing their own works, which are collated & passed on by others.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

There's no need to go further than that, Sauce. I think raw power is what we're looking for, not virtues.

As I said, I am not talking about morality or virtue here, but innate qualities and failings.

Although the list may have started out as "who could whup whom", lmp when pressed accepted that we are looking here at qualities other than "raw power", in terms of physical strength. And, if that is the case, I do not see why an innate mental weakness such as Feanor's rash nature should not be taken into account in the same way that we would take an innate physical weakness into account.

It depends, I suppose, on exactly what we mean by "power". But, if we are looking at a character in the round and considering spiritual and mental, as well as physical, strength, then surely Feanor's mental weakness, his rash and hot-headed nature, must be taken into account. It hampered his ability best to achieve what he wanted to achieve and was therefore something that weakened his overall "power" in the broadest sense.

The fact that Morgoth "targetted" him is a fair point, but there must have been some mental weakness there for him to have fallen for it in such a big way. Indeed, that was no doubt one of the main reasons why Morgoth identified him as a means to further his plans. Morgoth was, in effect, playing to Feanor's weaknesses.

And while it is true that a similar failings may be seen in a number of other characters, particularly other Noldor, in no one was it as pronounced, or indeed as influential, as in Feanor. And to the extent that other characters show similar mental weaknesses, then these should be taken into consideration when assessing, in broad terms, their "power". Turin is, I think, a good example here.

And one final point. Even if we are just looking at "who could whup whom", Feanor's mental wekaness still plays a role. It is something that a clever foe, perhaps one such as Galadriel, would have been able to use against him.

[narfforc]

Everything cannot be won by brute strength and willpower alone, how powerful is beauty and love. This may go off track a bit, but listen to Johnny Cash sing A Thing Called Love, I know it is only a song but the sentiment is there. Who decrees with what and how someone can 'whup' another, Luthien may have had Feanor eating out of her hand, if the sight of her could enflame lust in one of the most powerful beings in Arda, then I am afraid Feanor could have been vunerable to. We know that Feanor suffered from Greed, Jealousy and Pride, surely this is proof of some weakness of his mind.

[drigel]

The translator conceit is one that Tolkien put into the work in order to create a feigned reality..... in fact a kind of game, that doesn't necessarily obtain for the purposes of this thread.

If we are quantifying the qualities of the players, then the realization of the reality has to be a given. If the reality is feigned, then so is the list.

One could see one of the descendents of Feanor or one of their people ....producing the statement that Feanor was the 'greatest' of the Eldar, while one of the Elves of Rivendell produced the statement that Luthien was the 'greatest'

here is the rub that is presented, in terms of TC. Especially if one considers that much (or most) of the original history to have come from prose or song, then translated (and translated again and again etc.), one can easily get mixed messages as to who is "greatest". Or, ranking the "greatness". If I am a poet or a songsmith being commisioned by the House of Fingon, or the Court of Cirdan, the Family of Gil-Galad, you better believe I am going to ensure my sire is getting his/her's money's worth. Praise will gush forth in abundance. Subjectivity will be a casualty of convenience.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by davem

So are you saying we should discount any qualitative statements Tolkien makes, or that we should take them all into account - even when they contradict each other?

And I'd say that the TC cannot be left out of any analysis of the Legendarium. Its far more than merely a 'kind of game' - unless you conside sub creation as a whole a kind of 'game'.

Of what use is it in this "relative powers" game?

[davem]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Of what use is it in this "relative powers" game?

When people start using quotes from the works to justify who goes where in the hierarchy we have to analyse those quotes to see who says those things, what they say, why they say it & what they leave out.

Overall The Sil has an anti-Feanorian bias (being, one could speculate, due to the fact that Bilbo, the principal compiler of the Red Book, used sources of information, both living & written, that he found in Rivendell). So, the Feanoreans look bad in the Legends.

Take Celegorm & Curufin's attack on Beren & Luthien - who wrote that is important because the writer attributes various motives to C&C which may or may not have been true.

Or take Feanor. Was Feanor's story written as 'journalism' or as 'tragedy'? If SpM is correct that a characters moral/psychological strengths & weaknesses play a part in how we judge their innate 'power' (& thus where they belong in the hierarchy) then we have to ask 'Who's writing the report? Are they dependable - have they recieved full psychoanalytical training? Or we're they producing a work of moral didacticism, which may have little relation to actual events?'

One final point - if the Elves (as stated in Ainulindale) are bound by the Music as by Fate, then can we consider any of their actions to be 'courageous'? Wouldn't they only be able to follow the 'program'? Also, wouldn't it take greater courage for Men (who have no idea of their post-mortem state - or indeed whether they have any) to lay down their lives than for Elves (who know exactly what will happen to them) to do so?