money in middle earth

[A_Brandybuck]

Beat you. ;-)

PoME, On Translation:
Similarly farthing has been used for the four divisions of the Shire, because the Hobbit word tharni was an old word for 'quarter' seldom used in ordinary language, where the word for 'quarter' was tharantin 'fourth part'. In Gondor tharni was used for a silver coin, the fourth part of the castar (in Noldorin the canath or fourth part of the mirian).

But I cannot find a reference to the suggested equivalence to the silver pennies of Eriador.

[davem]

Thanks - you did just beat me (its on P 45 of vol 12 if anyone is interested)

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

But I cannot find a reference to the suggested equivalence to the silver pennies of Eriador.

The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter XI "A Knife in the Dark":

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

Bill Ferny's price was twelve silver pennies; and that was indeed at least three times the pony's value in those parts. It proved to be a bony, underfed, and dispirited animal; but it did not look like dying just yet. Mr. Butterbur paid for it himself, and offered Merry another eighteen pence as some compensation for the lost animals. He was an honest man, and well-off as things were reckoned in Bree; but thirty silver pennies was a sore blow to him, and being cheated by Bill Ferny made it harder to bear.

I forgot, in my original reference to the silver pennies, that Butterbur also paid 12 for Bill, but I'm pleased to see that I was right about the number 18...

[A_Brandybuck]

Sorry, but I don't get it. What part exactly means, that The tharni may thus have been equivalent to the silver pennies of Eriador ?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

Sorry, but I don't get it. What part exactly means, that The tharni may thus have been equivalent to the silver pennies of Eriador ?

Tolkien never said that... Michael Martinez said that, based on the assumption- fairly valid- that silver coins in one place (Eriador) would have been worth roughly the same as silver coins elsewhere (Gondor). The quotes about the tharni and Butterbur's pennies are where we get the idea of the two silver currencies from in the first place.

Also, since the currency used in the Shire and Bree is undoubtedly Arnorian in origin, and since Arnor and Gondor likely had similar currencies, it seems likely to assume that since Gondor only had one denomination of money cast in silver, that it would be equivalent to the silver pennies of the North (why call them silver if another coin were made of silver?).

But if you're looking for a quote by Tolkien that says "Silver pennies = tharni", then you are doomed to failure.

[Formendacil]

P.S.

My apologies for misreading your questioning post as a request for the reference in Tolkien to Butterbur's silver pennies. In case it wasn't already clear, that's what- in my hastiness, I fear- I thought you were asking.

[davem]

The tharni, we are told, was a silver coin, the fourth part of a castar. The tharni may thus have been equivalent to the silver pennies of Eriador.

The Elven equivalents for tharni and castar were canath (from kanat-, 'four') and mirian (from mir, 'a jewel or precious thing').

I think from the above passage from the Martinez essay that the coinage of both Gondor & Arnor was originally Numenorean & had its origin in Elven coinage. Probably then all the areas of M-e which came under Numenorean influence in the Second Age would have had a similar coinage.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Someone mentioned the exchange of currency between realms... And I have these guesses to offer:

*While it would have been pretty impossible to fix a rate of exchange for currency between realms, I would have to assume that currency in Gondor and Rohan would probably be about equivalent. The two civilizations are close enough together that trade/exchange of money would occur fairly regularly.

*If the Hobbits came in contact with money from other parts of the world, through chance events like Bilbo showing up with dragon gold, or through the rare excursion to Bree, I am sure they could work out how much foreign money was worth through weighing/examining the coins.


And on currency within the Shire itself:

*The halflings are skilled with their hands, so I see no reason why a smith or jeweler of some kind wouldn't take it upon himself to make coins/currency for the Shire.

*Wealthier families, as has been said before, probably had enough resources to trade in coins, whether they were gold, silver, or bronze. Merry certainly was able to handle money effectively, case in point, the brief mention of currency in Bree.

*Not much has been said, however, about lower-class families like the Gamgees. My own vision (which has no proof that I can discern) is that these groups of less wealthy citizens would mainly barter for what they need.
The Gamgees are gardeners, and can thus probably feed themselves pretty well, but they may need tools to plow, rake, etc. Perhaps in that event, they would trade produce for the materials they needed. I'm sure you didn't just walk into the Green Dragon, plunk down a zucchini and ask for a beer. Drinks were probably pretty cheap way back then (not much inflation). Lower-class families may have made some small coinage by selling their veggies in a market (that may have been a mix between bartering and trading coin), that they could use to go out for a pint with their buddies.

*I don't really see Frodo paying Sam in cash. He certainly would make sure that Sam's needs (and those of his family) were looked after--food in hard times, clothing if needed, fuel for heat, etc., but I am not sure that it was ever mentioned that either Bilbo or Frodo ever paid the Gamgees with actual money.

*Hobbits seem like polite, cheery, accommodating people overall, so I doubt that lack of coin money was ever a problem. They love feeding each other and sharing what they have, so I can picture a more mixed economy than I see in a larger, more rule-based society like Gondor, which is probably strictly cash.