Drama out of nothing... perhaps (Regarding the War of the Ring)

[Smaug]

Thanks for the responses guys. Nevertheless it seems strange (we are getting into tricky ground here, analysing situations that Tolkien never gave any coverage for), that the few Elves or so that could have escaped to Valinor would have sat back and enjoyed the bliss while far over the waves Middle Earth was being enslaved and destroyed by the order of Sauron. Manwë and the Valar demonstrate their concern and care for the plight of Middle Earth through their sending of the Istari and even arguably to a latter extent, the Eagles that nest in Hithaeglir.

Of course the argument can be put forth that Eru Ilúvatar left the free peoples of Middle Earth to govern their own affairs since many of the Elves had originally refused the summons of the Valar and chosen to dwell in the Mortal Lands. Yet this does not apply to races such as Hobbits whom were presumably created as the Children of Ilúvatar and are vulnerable. Subsequently they are never mentioned to have inhabited Valinor or had any ties with it (open or secret). They never received such an offer from the Valar.

It is evident by the main themes of Tolkien that Ilúvatar himself would never intervene in ‘a spectacular fashion’ to break Sauron and all his servants, but there is evidence as mentioned above, to suggest that the Valar in the Blessed Realm did at the very least care for what happened in the Mortal Lands (including Middle Earth as the last remnant of it during the War of the Ring). Total dominance by Sauron and a new Middle Earth infested with evils with the children of Ilúvatar now completely corrupted and ruined, the assumption can be that Manwë would not have taken to this kindly, and may have sent his servants to intervene.

This all may seem impractical, I'm sure it does. However I find it wholly unimaginable that the Valar would just ignore the situation completely. It could be viewed as inhumane since although Númenor could be held accountable for the problems with the Ring and such, Hobbits for instance were entirely faultless. It may have even been possible that Sauron with ultimate sovereignty over Middle Earth may have become extremely arrogant and even have attempted to assail Valinor over the sea.

[Celuien]

While true that the Valar did care about what took place in Middle-earth, they too seemed disclined to drastic intervention. The Istari, while sent to aid the fight against Sauron, were forbidden to use their full power to defeat him independently, their role being to encourage the Free Peoples to fight him themselves. And the Valar only arrived to fight Morgoth after Earendil's pleas. So while they may be troubled by Sauron's theoretical domination, they don't seem likely to send a force to 'clean house,' as it were. Maybe they would retry sending emissaries like the Istari (though that plan initially had a 4/5 failure rate), but not directly coming to battle with Sauron.

As to Eru plans ultimately working in the end, I'm sure that they would have led to Sauron's eventual defeat, but only after considerable destruction and heartache. How it would have happened, I can't say.

Of course the argument can be put forth that Eru Ilúvatar left the free peoples of Middle Earth to govern their own affairs since many of the Elves had originally refused the summons of the Valar and chosen to dwell in the Mortal Lands. Yet this does not apply to races such as Hobbits whom were presumably created as the Children of Ilúvatar and are vulnerable. Subsequently they are never mentioned to have inhabited Valinor or had any ties with it (open or secret). They never received such an offer from the Valar.

The ability to govern their own affairs isn't so much related to the Elves refusing the Valar's summons as to an intrinsic gift from Eru. In fact, I think that the more vulnerable races were actually the ones given more freedom of choice. Being at work, I don't have my books with me right now, but I think there's a passage about Men (and Hobbits, by extension) being the only Children not bound by the Fate set by the Music at the beginning. Actually, my personal theory would be that the more choice available, the less willing the Valar might be to intervene, since they would be less sure of Eru's plans, though I'm not sure I can back this up textually.

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Celuien

While true that the Valar did care about what took place in Middle-earth, they too seemed disclined to drastic intervention.

Particularly after the Valar laid down their guardianship/authority over the world after the Numenorean invasion. That act may have been permanent. Eru removed them from the world also, maybe the Valar were limited in what they could do for those very reasons

[drigel]

The ability to govern their own affairs isn't so much related to the Elves refusing the Valar's summons as to an intrinsic gift from Eru. In fact, I think that the more vulnerable races were actually the ones given more freedom of choice..... that the more choice available, the less willing the Valar might be to intervene, since they would be less sure of Eru's plans, though I'm not sure I can back this up textually.

Keep in mind also the theme of the downward cycle of direct diety/angelic involvement in ME, which parallels the rise of the dominance of men, who are outside of the music. Or, at least, not bound with the same fate as others within the music. The Vala arent perfect either, leaving a lot of loose ends unnoticed or unattended at the end of the 1st age. Sauron being the biggest oversight. Talk about unattended...even if Sauron was truly repentant, it does seem like a lackadaisical approached by the higher powers towards Sauron. And the wreck of Beleriand, much like Numenor, created a causality that resulted in a plateau, or a high water mark of direct involvement. Or was Numenor an added extension of a (although well intentioned) bad policy? Was it a gift, or did the Vala just feel guilty about the whole mess?

For one moment in time, Eru was involved very much with Sauron and with men, with the result of the drowning of a continent that was populated by thousands if not millions. I do wonder if the sinking of Numenor would have happened if Sauron was not physically on the island. Did that happen because of Sauron being there, or was that island doomed as soon as the Ar-Pharazon stepped foot upon the blessed shore?

[alatar]

It would be 'drama' for those that had to remain behind if Sauron reigned supreme. Those that weren't immediately killed and eaten would suffer years of torment. So, sure, if you were an elf with a boat ticket, all of that Dark Lord talk would be uninteresting, but if you were some lowly hobbit or human or dwarf...

And I would agree that not all elves would flee, and maybe they along with the help of others, would create some 'safe haven,' like we see in when Gondolin and much of ME is overrun by the forces of Morgoth (i.e. the Mouths of Sirion) that would spawn the new saviour/champion of the free folk. Like some wise person said, the stars are forever out of reach of the dark lords, and so there will always be some light somewhere.

And there's always the 'Bombadil' failsafe, where if things were to go hopelessly wrong our singing sleeper would get activated, then watch out Sauron!

What would happen if Sauron conquered all? Are we speaking just Middle Earth, or the entire bent-path world? Even if Sauron *could* control the entire world, the good folk still would have safe haven from which to continue the fight - Aman. And I think that Sauron, in stretching out his hands so far and so widely, would eventually fall.

Reading '1984,' I could think of many ways that such a system would fail, and so why not Sauron's darkness?

[littlemanpoet]

.... of sorts:

This discussion is akin to "what if Hitler had developed the bomb first?"

Fact is, he didn't. Tolkien's story turned out the way it did because, all players being who they were, all events turning how they did (seemingly extremely lucky), it could not have happened any other way. Sure, it's fun to speculate.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Fact is, he didn't. Tolkien's story turned out the way it did because, all players being who they were, all events turning how they did (seemingly extremely lucky), it could not have happened any other way. Sure, it's fun to speculate.

Don't think that we're playing the 'what-if' game here. Maybe the point of the thread is that Eru has a plan, and even if Saint Frodo failed, there would have been another mechanism that would have brought light back into Middle Earth. And so the elves, having seen all of this before, may have left ME knowing that Sauron would be thrown down some day, but didn't want to hang around for all of the ensuing messiness.

Not that I think that Eru encourages peoples to sit and wait for their own deliverance. He works with beings fighting the good fight.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Tolkien's story turned out the way it did because, all players being who they were, all events turning how they did (seemingly extremely lucky), it could not have happened any other way. Sure, it's fun to speculate.

Hmmm. hmmm. But is this the feeling readers have as they read along and even once they close the book? If it is, then where is the stunning sense of eucatastrophe? How can we experience this unexpected joy if we feel it was definitely going to happen this way all along? Surely at least in some measure the story makes us fear that this can happen 'another way' and therein lies the tension of the story.

I think this sense 'could not have happened any other way' has to arise after the fact, when thinking back over the story.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Hmmm. hmmm. But is this the feeling readers have as they read along and even once they close the book? If it is, then where is the stunning sense of eucatastrophe? How can we experience this unexpected joy if we feel it was definitely going to happen this way all along? Surely at least in some measure the story makes us fear that this can happen 'another way' and therein lies the tension of the story.

I think this sense 'could not have happened any other way' has to arise after the fact, when thinking back over the story.

Life's like that. We pass through it not knowing how things are going to be, and how often has it not been that you look back and know that it could not be any other way? Of course, there are plenty of instances that we look back and wish it could have been different....
So a reader will have the same experience; even, perhaps, wishing it could have been different in certain ways (like Sméagol repenting!).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Life's like that. We pass through it not knowing how things are going to be, and how often has it not been that you look back and know that it could not be any other way? Of course, there are plenty of instances that we look back and wish it could have been different....
So a reader will have the same experience; even, perhaps, wishing it could have been different in certain ways (like Sméagol repenting!).

Oh, I thought we were discussing sub-creation. And, for that matter, fairie.

As alatar said,

Don't think that we're playing the 'what-if' game here

I assume you are referring to Ilúvatar's words in Ainulindale but I could be wrong. Perhaps you can elaborate, alatar?

Originally Posted by Ilúvatar

he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

(It's an interesting touch, isn't it, how the archaic verb form is used to lend authority to his words.)