Of another world

[Legolas in spandex]

Originally Posted by davem

Yet Jesus told his disciples to be as 'wise as serpents'. )

And that falls under whether you believe wisdom and intelligence to be the same thing.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legolas in spandex

And that falls under whether you believe wisdom and intelligence to be the same thing.

Noun 1. wisdom - accumulated knowledge or erudition or enlightenment
cognitive content, mental object, content - the sum or range of what has been perceived, discovered, or learned
abstrusity, profoundness, profundity, reconditeness, abstruseness - wisdom that is recondite and abstruse and profound; "the anthropologist was impressed by the reconditeness of the native proverbs"
2. wisdom - the trait of utilizing knowledge and experience with common sense and insight
wiseness
trait - a distinguishing feature of your personal nature
judiciousness, sagaciousness, sagacity - the trait of forming opinions by distinguishing and evaluating
knowledgeability, knowledgeableness, initiation - wisdom as evidenced by the possession of knowledge; "his knowledgeability impressed me"; "his dullness was due to lack of initiation"
statecraft, statesmanship, diplomacy - wisdom in the management of public affairs
discernment, discretion - the trait of judging wisely and objectively; "a man of discernment"
folly, foolishness, unwiseness - the trait of acting stupidly or rashly
3. wisdom - ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight
sapience
astuteness, profoundness, profundity, depth - the intellectual ability to penetrate deeply into ideas
sagaciousness, sagacity, discernment, judgement, judgment - ability to make good judgments
know-how - the (technical) knowledge and skill required to do something
4. wisdom - the quality of being prudent and sensible
wiseness, soundness
goodness, good - that which is good or valuable or useful; "weigh the good against the bad"; "among the highest goods of all are happiness and self-realization"
advisability - the quality of being advisable; "they questioned the advisability of our policy"
reasonableness - goodness of reason and judgment; "the judiciary is built on the reasonableness of judges"

Originally Posted by Formendacil

So, we can take it then, that you believe that people can become evil, that they can do horrible things, live in cultures that do not respect life, limb, or the weak, and yet remain Unfallen?

Depends on your definition of 'Fallen', I suppose.

Would you call the Dunlendings as generally seen, or Herumor, Fuinur, or any of their Black Númenorean-allied Haradrim, or the Witchking, or corrupt King Fengel of Rohan, or Dorlas of Tol-Brandir, or Ulfang and his kin, or the Master of Esgaroth as Unfallen?

I think they can just be seen as people who do nasty, selfish things - which most people do now & then. If you're using 'Fallen' to mean simply unpleasant then you're leaving out the spiritual dimension - ie the Biblical requirement of a spiritual choice being made to reject God's will/commandments. There's no equivalent to that in the Legendarium.

Unfallen in Tolkien's world means the primordial state of the race, as intended by Eru. Evil, in any form, is a sign of a Fall, unless imposed from without. Any evil that comes from within a person is a sign of that person's fall, as well as the fall of his or her entire race. Fëanor's fall was his, and his alone, but all of the Exiles fell with him, even those who had no evil intent, such as Galadriel or Finrod.

Whether that was in Tolkien's mind is not the question. The question is whether the reader picks up on that - ie whether its specifically stated in the story, whether its necessary to hold that concept in mind in order to understand the story. Christians may explain the Primary world in terms of a Fall but most non Christians do not. In other words, just as the Fall of Man is not necessary in order to account for the Primary world, neither is it necessary in order to account for the Secondary one - you can bring the concept in if you wish, but you don't need it.