Of another world

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by lmp

And for myself, getting back to the original question, I am most interested in (1) Tolkien's use of Elves in reference to the Atlantis legend, and (2) the many legends of sea-faring peoples who came from advanced cultures to northern Europe and delivered their wisdom and culture to the indigenous. There are the Milesians who came to Ireland, which may be the inspiration for that old Historia Britonum (please correct me someone, I know I just murdered it) which has the Trojans establishing Britain. In like manner, Tolkien has the Numenoreans come from the sinking Isle to establish their culture in Gondor and Arnor. What grabs my attention is the disconnected legends of the Irish and the known history we have of Asia Minor, giving us on one hand the folkloric "Milesians" and on the other, the citizens of Miletus, just a hundred or so miles south of Troy, which surely was just as affected by the fortunes both good and ill that befell Troy, and sent whole citizenries to their ships to find harbor in far-off ports anywhere from Carthage to Asturia to Brittany to Ireland to the Shetlands. And then there is the legend of the Fomori from the north ... there's that thing of the north again ... which puts me yet again in mind of Tolkien's choice of Morgoth in northern Thangorodrim. But now I'm wandering all over the folkloric map.....

Where would Tolkien's mythology be without a Great Flood? Most mythologies seem to have flood stories, so why should his be any different? Perhaps all these Great Floods originate from ancient memory of real floods, of Tsunami, of previous meltings of the polar ice caps and maybe times when meteorites have struck the earth and caused massive global flooding? I'm sure that there is something in the idea that British Atlantis myths such as Lyonnesse spring from the time the islands were cut adrift by the creation of the English Channel. There are also stories that in Roman times, the Scilly Isles were once one big island, which may even have been joined to Cornwall at some point.

There seem to me to be some direct parallels between the Tuatha De Danaan and the Elves. The land of Tir Na Nog could be reflected in Valinor, although this could also be an underground kingdom according to Irish folklore.

Apparently the Milesians are not the same as the Greek/Aegean people. These incomers to Ireland may have come from Spain. Although new archaeological evidence has shown that Ireland did not suffer from waves of invasion as some of the histories and myths state; in the main, Irish DNA has remained unchanged for millenia. This has also dispelled the myth that the Celts were invaders from Europe; it seems that Celtic culture spread, but not the people. Maybe a lot of the Irish tales of 'invaders' go incredibly far back, right to the times when farming cultures took over from hunter/gatherers, maybe even to when modern Man took over from Neanderthals?

I'm often uncomfortable with tales that ancient Greeks 'founded' British cultures. Evidence does not prove this in any way, and I often wonder if it was an attempt by scholars to impose a Classical 'nobility' onto the history of the Britons and Celts. All the evidence to suggest that these islands had a rich culture anyway are there for all to see in the huge amounts of Megalithic remains to be found all over the islands.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

(I must say, I agree with the reservations davem and others have expressed about Adam and Eve and the serpent, but what I find really difficult getting to grips with, is the Flood. Even if we could accept that all humanity, even new born babies, were irredeemably evil, except for Noah and co, what about all the animals? Did they have moral sense and thus commit evil and deserve to die?)

I feel the same! I can only accept a God who is Good. But Tolkien's personal view of God and his works was of a very cruel God. He himself lived through scenes of slaughter and senseless killing, and it does seem that he indeed struggled to come to balance his Faith with his experiences during the 1920s. From his writing it does become apparent that he accepted a God who did allow people to die needlessly, one who demanded blood sacrifices. In that respect, I think Tolkien would have accepted the biblical Flood as simply God's work.