Absolutely Evil

[davem]

=Aiwendil It is not just Arda Unmarred, Arda Hasteina, to which the Elves look forward; it is Arda Healed, Arda Envinyanta.

I take the point, but this begs another question - was Eru's original vision - Arda Unmarred - 'Perfect'? If it can be surpassed by Arda Envinyanta, then it was imperfect, but how could Eru's vision be less than perfect, given it is Eru's vision? If it can then this implies that Eru's thought can evolve, be improved upon by the actions of created beings. Unless Eru already had Arda Envinyanta in His thought from the beginning - in which case why not just make the final version without all the messing around?

Or to extend this to the Biblical story - did God already have the Redeemed world in mind before the Fall? If so, why get mad at Adam & Eve?

[Aiwendil]

I take the point, but this begs another question - was Eru's original vision - Arda Unmarred - 'Perfect'? If it can be surpassed by Arda Envinyanta, then it was imperfect, but how could Eru's vision be less than perfect, given it is Eru's vision?

Not necessarily. That a thing is perfect does not necessarily mean that it is better than all other things. For example, I think that Mozart's 41st symphony is just about as nearly "perfect" as any piece of music can be. But I think that Beethoven's 5th symphony is better - more imperfect, but better.

But I don't think that the question of whether the posited relations of Arda Unmarred, Arda Marred, and Arda Healed are possible need be entered into. It seems quite clear to me that, whatever our views, Tolkien at least believed that such things made sense. I would've thought that, as a member of the "Author's Intention" party, you would take Tolkien's word and leave it at that . . .

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Not necessarily. That a thing is perfect does not necessarily mean that it is better than all other things. For example, I think that Mozart's 41st symphony is just about as nearly "perfect" as any piece of music can be. But I think that Beethoven's 5th symphony is better - more imperfect, but better.

But I don't think that the question of whether the posited relations of Arda Unmarred, Arda Marred, and Arda Healed are possible need be entered into. It seems quite clear to me that, whatever our views, Tolkien at least believed that such things made sense. I would've thought that, as a member of the "Author's Intention" party, you would take Tolkien's word and leave it at that . . .

But surely 'Perfect' is Perfect & cannot be bettered. Perfect implies absence of any flaws. If a thing can be bettered it is not perfect. And if we are speaking of something made/concieved by a perfect being surely the thing should be beyond improvement?

As to the quotes you gave re: Arda Envinyantar - these are only Elvish speculations or hopes, it seems to me, & therefore we cannot necessarily take them as 'facts'.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by davem

But surely 'Perfect' is Perfect & cannot be bettered. Perfect implies absence of any flaws.

Aye, but sometimes you don't want perfect. Sometimes you want a flaw or two so that you can relate. Nobody wants to read a story about a perfect character. Nobody wants a friend or lover with no flaws. If there's any way to make you see your own, it's to be next to someone without. Sometimes the more perfect specimen of any variety is the one that's just slightly off kilter. Savvy? Every so often, it's the lack of perfection that makes you like someone or something that much more. You still revere the perfection, you just like the flaws a lot more. After all... perhaps Eru knew what we all secretly (or not so secretly) know: perfection is boring.

[narfforc]

Exactly, Fea , what is the point of the story of Utopia without corruption, or Hell without redemption, where is the struggle for the noble spirit to shine through and win the day, There are no brave heroic warriors needed in Utopia, what is there to fight, if Utopia is not marred by evil, then it just exists to function. Atlantis was such a place, until it became corrupt, the story of Numenore is not new by any means. We see in our own world, shining civilisations fall to greed and corruption, we live in Paradise Lost and we are tested every day, every person and every nation.

[Kuruharan]

And if we are speaking of something made/concieved by a perfect being surely the thing should be beyond improvement?

Perhaps its ability to be imperfect is part of its ultimate perfection...especially if there is a process to go through to get there.

Aye, but sometimes you don't want perfect.

This statement really reflects more on the human condition than on any perfection. We are fundamentally unstable beings and when we are stable we tend to get bored.

Nobody wants a friend or lover with no flaws.

Try me, specifically the second one. It should be something to inspire you to be better rather than something to make you bitter.

perfection is boring.

I'm afraid I'd have to argue that no human being is really in a position to know because (as far as I know) no human being has ever been there.

Besides, if perfection is so boring, why is it that practically everybody is trying to better themselves in some way?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm afraid I'd have to argue that no human being is really in a position to know because (as far as I know) no human being has ever been there.

Besides, if perfection is so boring, why is it that practically everybody is trying to better themselves in some way?

I'm feeling arrogant enough this morning to answer this . What is this perfection that people are striving for? How do you define it? Anorexics see themselves as needing to lose weight, but the rest of the world sees them as medically ill and wraith-like. Cosmetic surgery is so popular because people just want something different. In the cases that I've seen, if you think that the person was made 'more perfect,' well, then, I guess everyone has opinions. Isn't perfection situational? My wife may be the perfect fit for me but not for any other, and so she's then imperfect but perfect, I guess.

We are creatures adapted to recognize change. It's a survival trait, as you definitely want to know when to run. We say that all that we'd like to do is sit by a river and fish for the rest of our lives, but after a few days or weeks, the sameness would have us finding either some problem or job that just has to be fixed/done. We squirm in perfect cages.

Like Tolkien's humans, we're travellers, never happy with the status quo.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Besides, if perfection is so boring, why is it that practically everybody is trying to better themselves in some way?

Striving for the impossible means that you'll never run out of something to work toward. Why bother doing anything if you already have everything?

A thought... Captain Jack Sparrow once said that you can always trust a dishonest person to be dishonest. It's the honest ones you have to watch out for, honestly, because you can never tell when they're about to do something really stupid.

If there was such thing as absolute evil, even in a fictional world, it would be too easy to combat; too predictable.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

Or to extend this to the Biblical story - did God already have the Redeemed world in mind before the Fall? If so, why get mad at Adam & Eve?

Was it Eru's plan to allow some free will agents to run wild and free in its universe, knowing that, in the end, the whole would be more than the sum of the parts and would achieve that which Eru could foresee but not by itself create? And I can't help but think of a better way to torque Melkor off than, at the end of all things, show him what beauty all of his petty schemes, plots and perversions created (as mentioned, snowflakes).

"You wasted so much time and your self, your being, as all you'll be remembered for throughout eternity is being the creator of snow. Loser."