Absolutely Evil

[narfforc]

Exactly, Fea , what is the point of the story of Utopia without corruption, or Hell without redemption, where is the struggle for the noble spirit to shine through and win the day, There are no brave heroic warriors needed in Utopia, what is there to fight, if Utopia is not marred by evil, then it just exists to function. Atlantis was such a place, until it became corrupt, the story of Numenore is not new by any means. We see in our own world, shining civilisations fall to greed and corruption, we live in Paradise Lost and we are tested every day, every person and every nation.

[Kuruharan]

And if we are speaking of something made/concieved by a perfect being surely the thing should be beyond improvement?

Perhaps its ability to be imperfect is part of its ultimate perfection...especially if there is a process to go through to get there.

Aye, but sometimes you don't want perfect.

This statement really reflects more on the human condition than on any perfection. We are fundamentally unstable beings and when we are stable we tend to get bored.

Nobody wants a friend or lover with no flaws.

Try me, specifically the second one. It should be something to inspire you to be better rather than something to make you bitter.

perfection is boring.

I'm afraid I'd have to argue that no human being is really in a position to know because (as far as I know) no human being has ever been there.

Besides, if perfection is so boring, why is it that practically everybody is trying to better themselves in some way?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm afraid I'd have to argue that no human being is really in a position to know because (as far as I know) no human being has ever been there.

Besides, if perfection is so boring, why is it that practically everybody is trying to better themselves in some way?

I'm feeling arrogant enough this morning to answer this . What is this perfection that people are striving for? How do you define it? Anorexics see themselves as needing to lose weight, but the rest of the world sees them as medically ill and wraith-like. Cosmetic surgery is so popular because people just want something different. In the cases that I've seen, if you think that the person was made 'more perfect,' well, then, I guess everyone has opinions. Isn't perfection situational? My wife may be the perfect fit for me but not for any other, and so she's then imperfect but perfect, I guess.

We are creatures adapted to recognize change. It's a survival trait, as you definitely want to know when to run. We say that all that we'd like to do is sit by a river and fish for the rest of our lives, but after a few days or weeks, the sameness would have us finding either some problem or job that just has to be fixed/done. We squirm in perfect cages.

Like Tolkien's humans, we're travellers, never happy with the status quo.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Besides, if perfection is so boring, why is it that practically everybody is trying to better themselves in some way?

Striving for the impossible means that you'll never run out of something to work toward. Why bother doing anything if you already have everything?

A thought... Captain Jack Sparrow once said that you can always trust a dishonest person to be dishonest. It's the honest ones you have to watch out for, honestly, because you can never tell when they're about to do something really stupid.

If there was such thing as absolute evil, even in a fictional world, it would be too easy to combat; too predictable.

[JennyHallu]

I'm afraid I'd have to argue that no human being is really in a position to know because (as far as I know) no human being has ever been there.

Adam and Eve experienced perfection and were dissatisfied, defying the only law they had.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Adam and Eve experienced perfection and were dissatisfied, defying the only law they had.

Subject to debate [though not on this forum].

[JennyHallu]

Fea: Shush! Trying to agree with you here!

But seriously, the only historical or religious mention we have of a perfect world is Eden, and that would certainly be what the Christian Tolkien would have thought of. And in that case, men were dissatisfied with perfection, and tested it.

[Kuruharan]

We squirm in perfect cages.

I don't think anybody certainly identifiable has ever been in a situation of perfection to test this particular proposition of yours. If anybody ever has been, undoubtedly everybody around them thought they were distressingly boring and did not want to pay any attention to them.

Like Tolkien's humans, we're travellers, never happy with the status quo.

Yes.

Striving for the impossible means that you'll never run out of something to work toward. Why bother doing anything if you already have everything?

I've heard somewhere that perfection can only be experienced in an ending. Perhaps this is the reason why.

Adam and Eve experienced perfection and were dissatisfied, defying the only law they had.

-and-

And in that case, men were dissatisfied with perfection, and tested it.

*Sticking self about as far out on limb as self probably should go*

One could probably argue that in this case the imperfection lay within themselves in their inability to be content rather than in their environment.

Indeed, lack of contentment seems to lead to all kinds of trouble...look at Melkor, Feanor, the Noldor in general, the Numenoreans... *drags topic back to Tolkien where it will hopefully remain*

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

But surely 'Perfect' is Perfect & cannot be bettered. Perfect implies absence of any flaws. If a thing can be bettered it is not perfect. And if we are speaking of something made/concieved by a perfect being surely the thing should be beyond improvement?

Again, I don't see why this need be so. I've even given an example where, in myh opinion (and, I'd venture to say, the opinion of a number of musical scholars), one work can be both greater and more imperfect than another. I think that Tolkien would say that Arda Healed is not an "improvement" upon Arda Unmarred; it's a different thing, and greater - even if Arda Unmarred would have been "perfect"

Mozart's 41st is just about perfect as a Classical symphony. Beethoven's 5th is perhaps not perfect, but is more than a Classical symphony.

To take an example closer to home, as it were, I think a great many people feel the Silmarillion is a greater work than LotR, despite the fact that it is obviously more imperfect.

As to the quotes you gave re: Arda Envinyantar - these are only Elvish speculations or hopes, it seems to me, & therefore we cannot necessarily take them as 'facts'.

It certainly seems to me that Tolkien is speaking through Finrod's mouth - I would be very surprised indeed to discover evidence that Tolkien's views on the theology of Arda differed from Finrod's.

But in any case the first bit I quoted is spoken not by an Elf but by Manwe himself!