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Old 04-25-2006, 08:55 PM   #1
AragornII
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...winged dragons were not defeated by Men either.
Technically, that isn't true. Smaug was defeated by Bard, who was a Man . I know that isn't during the war you are talking about, but it happened.
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Old 04-28-2006, 01:39 PM   #2
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I did find the quote that Sauron ended up surpassing Morgoth in power. This is from HoME: Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed:
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Sauron was 'greater' effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical consitituents of the Earth--hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanantly 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means and devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way, Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things. The time of Melkor's greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs on a great scale.....
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Old 04-29-2006, 07:32 AM   #3
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Sauron was 'greater' effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First.
I would notice the use of the quote marks in that phrase. Moreover, Sauron is "far smaller by natural stature" and has "(much more limited) power ". He was never capable of destroying the whole of Arda (as the valar knew Melkor could, if they would have attacked any sooner - according to your own source).
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Old 04-29-2006, 09:00 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Raynor
I would notice the use of the quote marks in that phrase. Moreover, Sauron is "far smaller by natural stature" and has "(much more limited) power ". He was never capable of destroying the whole of Arda (as the valar knew Melkor could, if they would have attacked any sooner - according to your own source).

You're correct, and I doubt you'll find anyone willing to dispute the contention that Morgoth was a much mightier being than Sauron. The point of the quoted text, however, is to express just how low Morgoth had fallen.
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Old 04-29-2006, 12:44 PM   #5
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Further delving into the issue: had Sauron recovered the Ring and laid waste to the world of Men, would he--could he--have eventually tried to make war on Aman?
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Old 04-29-2006, 01:46 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Billbeaux
Further delving into the issue: had Sauron recovered the Ring and laid waste to the world of Men, would he--could he--have eventually tried to make war on Aman?
No. Sauron at his mightiest (the Second Age) was still no match for the wrath of the Powers. He and his Ring would still have to be destroyed for his defeat to be complete, but that was certainly not beyond the power of the Valar; in fact, I imagine he would have found himself bested by Eonwe, who was not only mightier by nature, but was also unfallen and unweakened through incarnation.
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Old 04-29-2006, 09:13 PM   #7
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Raynor:
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I would notice the use of the quote marks in that phrase. Moreover, Sauron is "far smaller by natural stature" and has "(much more limited) power ". He was never capable of destroying the whole of Arda (as the valar knew Melkor could, if they would have attacked any sooner - according to your own source).
Yes, sorry if it seemed like I was saying Sauron had become more powerful than Morgoth ever was. But, was trying to say that at one point Sauron had surpassed Morgoth in power (though this was when as obloquy says Morgoth began his downfall. To further the point, Sauron had felt as if he had reached Morgoth's height of power, but he had been much weaker than from the 2nd age:
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When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned.~Letter 183
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