Regarding the Enemy

New member, first post; a few basic questions primarily concerning the bad guys:

1) Gandalf and Sauron were both Maiar--angels for all intents and purposes. Now as I understand it, part of the Istari mandate was that the wizards could never use their vast array of powers to effect an outcome...theirs was to counsel/rally/etc.

That said, if Gandalf wasn't incumbered by the mandate and allowed to manifest as the Maia Olorin, would he have been as powerful as Sauron? Powerful enough to take him on one-on-one?

2) Did the majority of the inhabitants of Middle-Earth know what Sauron was (that is to say, a fallen Maia who had been corrupted by Morgoth)? If I had to venture a guess, I'd assume that it was pretty well known by the Elves, who'd had real-time interactions with the Valar/Maiar, but what about the other inhabitants?

For that matter, was anyone fully aware that the wizards were also Maiar? I would think that some of the more important Elves (Celebron, Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan) knew, but I can't see too many others knowing, because it's not like the wizards ran around announcing their true identities to everyone they met.

3) By the time of LOTR, the Valar had long stopped directly intervening in Middle-Earth affairs. That said, if Sauron had reclaimed the ring/regained all of his power, could the Valar have still personally unseated him if they'd gotten super-****ed (as they did with Morgoth).

4) Regarding Morgoth: as Melkor, he was little short of a fallen god and was unmatched by any being in Arda (save Manwe, possibly?). Over time he bled a lot of his native power into the world, weakening himself to the point where--though still immensely powerful--he was confined to a terrible form and apparently unable to repair injuries (Silms burned his hands, Fingolfin left him limping, an eagle tore some chunks from his face). Is it feasible to suggest that perhaps one of his lieutenants--Sauron in all likelihood--might have tried to overthrow him; or was he still too powerful for something like that to happen?

5) Last question: was Ungoliant more powerful than Morgoth? It seemed to me like she could have done him in when he refused to cough up the Silmarils, were it not for the timely arrival of the Balrogs.

[Boromir88]

That said, if Gandalf wasn't incumbered by the mandate and allowed to manifest as the Maia Olorin, would he have been as powerful as Sauron? Powerful enough to take him on one-on-one?

Tolkien answers this in Letter 246:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

So, Gandalf would be expected to be the only one IF it was possible. Whether he was or not is really up to you. Gandalf was referred to as the wisest of the Maiar, but he surely wasn't the most powerful.

Did the majority of the inhabitants of Middle-Earth know what Sauron was (that is to say, a fallen Maia who had been corrupted by Morgoth)? If I had to venture a guess, I'd assume that it was pretty well known by the Elves, who'd had real-time interactions with the Valar/Maiar, but what about the other inhabitants?

This may also be up to debate/opinion. A while ago, and I had to do searching for this one I did a thread on possible who knew that Gandalf was Olorin. I figured Glorfindel knew, because back in Valinor they talked a lot, and most likely Cirdan as well, for he foresaw that Gandalf would be the only Istari to stay true to his task and gave him Narya to aid him. But, you can check out this thread, and see if it's any help:
Did anyone know?

By the time of LOTR, the Valar had long stopped directly intervening in Middle-Earth affairs. That said, if Sauron had reclaimed the ring/regained all of his power, could the Valar have still personally unseated him if they'd gotten super-****ed

Probably, but Eru wouldn't let it get to that point. As he was the one that caused Gollum to slip and fall with the Ring into Mount Doom. But, I would say that if it came to that point, seeing as Eru still cared for Middle-earth they probably would have gotten involved.

Regarding Morgoth: as Melkor, he was little short of a fallen god and was unmatched by any being in Arda (save Manwe, possibly?). Over time he bled a lot of his native power into the world, weakening himself to the point where--though still immensely powerful--he was confined to a terrible form and apparently unable to repair injuries (Silms burned his hands, Fingolfin left him limping, an eagle tore some chunks from his face). Is it feasible to suggest that perhaps one of his lieutenants--Sauron in all likelihood--might have tried to overthrow him; or was he still too powerful for something like that to happen?

Another questionable one, I would say no. However, Tolkien does say that at the end of the Second Age Sauron was more powerful than Morgoth was, because of the reason you mentioned, in that Morgoth had spread out and "bled" his powers. I will have to do some searching for the quote, as I don't have it available at this moment.

Last question: was Ungoliant more powerful than Morgoth? It seemed to me like she could have done him in when he refused to cough up the Silmarils, were it not for the timely arrival of the Balrogs.

That's what it seemed like. But, I wouldn't be so hasty it what it seems. The WK was more powerful than Eowyn and Merry and yet they were able to defeat him. In Tolkien's books it's hard to set up powers, and who is more powerful than whom, as there never seems to be "levels" as in Dragon Ball Z . At any moment anything can happen.

Welcome to the forum and I hope I was of some help.

[Raynor]

That said, if Gandalf wasn't incumbered by the mandate and allowed to manifest as the Maia Olorin, would he have been as powerful as Sauron? Powerful enough to take him on one-on-one?

The original five maiars were said to be "mighty, peers of Sauron", cf The Istari, Unfinished Tales.

For that matter, was anyone fully aware that the wizards were also Maiar?

I doubt that; Gandalf himself was considered by Men just an elf, cf the same source above.

That said, if Sauron had reclaimed the ring/regained all of his power, could the Valar have still personally unseated him if they'd gotten super-****ed (as they did with Morgoth).

I doubt that:

Originally Posted by RotK, the last debate

If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts.(Gandalf)

But you can always bet on euchatastrophe in Tolkien's world .

Is it feasible to suggest that perhaps one of his lieutenants--Sauron in all likelihood--might have tried to overthrow him;

I wouldn't say so:

Originally Posted by Myths Transformed

Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life.

and more to the point:

While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored.

(and even in RotK, Sauron is named "servant of Morgoth").

was Ungoliant more powerful than Morgoth?

At the time they confronted each other, Melkor was weakened and he transfered a lot of his power to Ungoliant, who also sucked dry the Two Trees, the wells of Varda and absorbed the power of many noldor artefacts; we don't even know if she could have actually kill him. In "normal" conditions, Ungoliant would lose, imo.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Raynor

In "normal" conditions, Ungoliant would lose, imo.

Yes, but in the world of Middle-Earth there are hardly "normal" conditions.



(This may not mean anything, but it may be of importance.)

(P.S. One poster's mentioning of DBZ was on the spot. It was mainly a whole "Power Level" thing, with apparent constipation going on to reach said power.)

[Anguirel]

To help with the latter half of question two, here's another thread:

Gandalf as a Maia? by dwarfguard

I have fond memories of it; it was one of the first I posted in...it got rather fraught with argument and digression, but it's fascinating.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I'm pretty dang sure that Gandalf would know who he was. It wasn't like they needed to pull a mindwipe on their trusted agents.

[Raynor]

Indeed:

Originally Posted by The Istari, Unfinished Tales

...and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Another questionable one, I would say no. However, Tolkien does say that at the end of the Second Age Sauron was more powerful than Morgoth was, because of the reason you mentioned, in that Morgoth had spread out and "bled" his powers.

That's interesting because it would lead one to conclude that the Numenoreans, or the Last Alliance, would have been able to defeat Morgoth, since they defeated Sauron (easily in the case of the Numenoreans) during the Second Age.

[Anguirel]

Not really, I don't think. Sauron the entity might have had the edge over Morgoth the weakened entity-maybe-but Morgoth's armies were by far the stronger; the hosts of the Balrogs and Dragons including Anclagon the Black and Sauron as well at his bidding...

[Farael]

Well, I think it's a matter of three possible scenarios

a) Morgoth and Sauron going "mano a mano" in a one-to-one fight. Sauron may have had the edge as Morgoth had spread much of his power around.

b) Sauron revolting against Morgoth, gathering an army and going after his former Master.

c) Sauron gaining the loyalty of Morgoth's strongest lieutenants and captains and overthrowing him without a battle.

Of the three, A) is the only one that would have Sauron as a victor, but at the same time it would never happen as I'm sure that Morgoth knew of his own limitations and at the same time, there are no indications that Sauron was unhappy with his role (as far as I am aware of, and I reckon I don't know as much as other)

Option C) is all but impossible. Where has Morgoth's power gone? into "creating" (I know, he can't actually create, but he did modify existing things to serve his purposes) lieutenants that would not only be mighty but also respond to him. It is possible that some of this power Morgoth spread went to assuring the loyalty of his men.

Option B) has the same shortcomings that option C. While Sauron may be able to gather an army of orcs to march against Morgoth, it is very likely that Morgoth would have most if not all of his Balrogs, Dragons and such creatures by his side. No matter how great an army of Orcs Sauron may be able to gather, they would be no match for Morgoth's forces.

Sure, Sauron may (and note it says "may") have had the edge on a movie-style one on one confrontation, but Morgoth did not spread his powers around by accident. In a way, it's like Sauron's ring. Sauron "spent" some of his inherent powers on making the ring but at the same time he became stronger while he had his ring. Morgoth spent some of his powers on creating his vast armies and well, as long as he had his armies, balrogs, dragons and other such demons he was an overwhelming force to be reckoned with.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

That's interesting because it would lead one to conclude that the Numenoreans, or the Last Alliance, would have been able to defeat Morgoth, since they defeated Sauron (easily in the case of the Numenoreans) during the Second Age.

The numenoreans didn't actually defeat Sauron, as there was no confrontation. We don't know if any human can defeat a balrog and the winged dragons were not defeated by Men either.
If Sauron was indeed mightier than late Morgoth, I doubt that the valars would have sent just the istari, and not a full host of "high" elves, lead by the mightiest in arms of all Arda, as they did with Morgoth.

[AragornII]

...winged dragons were not defeated by Men either.

Technically, that isn't true. Smaug was defeated by Bard, who was a Man . I know that isn't during the war you are talking about, but it happened.

[Boromir88]

I did find the quote that Sauron ended up surpassing Morgoth in power. This is from HoME: Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed:

Sauron was 'greater' effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical consitituents of the Earth--hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanantly 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means and devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way, Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things. The time of Melkor's greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs on a great scale.....

[Raynor]

Sauron was 'greater' effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First.

I would notice the use of the quote marks in that phrase. Moreover, Sauron is "far smaller by natural stature" and has "(much more limited) power ". He was never capable of destroying the whole of Arda (as the valar knew Melkor could, if they would have attacked any sooner - according to your own source).

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I would notice the use of the quote marks in that phrase. Moreover, Sauron is "far smaller by natural stature" and has "(much more limited) power ". He was never capable of destroying the whole of Arda (as the valar knew Melkor could, if they would have attacked any sooner - according to your own source).

You're correct, and I doubt you'll find anyone willing to dispute the contention that Morgoth was a much mightier being than Sauron. The point of the quoted text, however, is to express just how low Morgoth had fallen.

Further delving into the issue: had Sauron recovered the Ring and laid waste to the world of Men, would he--could he--have eventually tried to make war on Aman?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Billbeaux

Further delving into the issue: had Sauron recovered the Ring and laid waste to the world of Men, would he--could he--have eventually tried to make war on Aman?

No. Sauron at his mightiest (the Second Age) was still no match for the wrath of the Powers. He and his Ring would still have to be destroyed for his defeat to be complete, but that was certainly not beyond the power of the Valar; in fact, I imagine he would have found himself bested by Eonwe, who was not only mightier by nature, but was also unfallen and unweakened through incarnation.

[Boromir88]

Raynor:

I would notice the use of the quote marks in that phrase. Moreover, Sauron is "far smaller by natural stature" and has "(much more limited) power ". He was never capable of destroying the whole of Arda (as the valar knew Melkor could, if they would have attacked any sooner - according to your own source).

Yes, sorry if it seemed like I was saying Sauron had become more powerful than Morgoth ever was. But, was trying to say that at one point Sauron had surpassed Morgoth in power (though this was when as obloquy says Morgoth began his downfall. To further the point, Sauron had felt as if he had reached Morgoth's height of power, but he had been much weaker than from the 2nd age:

When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned.~Letter 183

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Raynor:

Yes, sorry if it seemed like I was saying Sauron had become more powerful than Morgoth ever was. But, was trying to say that at one point Sauron had surpassed Morgoth in power (though this was when as obloquy says Morgoth began his downfall. To further the point, Sauron had felt as if he had reached Morgoth's height of power, but he had been much weaker than from the 2nd age:

No, Morgoth began his downfall long before Sauron peaked. Morgoth was at his mightiest before the Elves even awoke and declined from there.