The Fëanor inside Fëanor Sons

[Lalaith]

Caranthir
Is there any more to him except being haughty and ill-tempered?

Well, yes there is. He behaved well and honourably to the People of Haleth, offering Haleth recompense for her dead brother and father. He saw "what valour there was in the people of the Edain." This is at a time when many of the elves (Thingol and the green-elves of Ossirand in particular) were inclined to despise them.
I do not think that Feanor would have had much time for Men, one of his greatest flaws was arrogance. So perhaps even Caranthir, so much his father's son, had something of his mother in him.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Well, yes there is. He behaved well and honourably to the People of Haleth, offering Haleth recompense for her dead brother and father. He saw "what valour there was in the people of the Edain." This is at a time when many of the elves (Thingol and the green-elves of Ossirand in particular) were inclined to despise them.
I do not think that Feanor would have had much time for Men, one of his greatest flaws was arrogance. So perhaps even Caranthir, so much his father's son, had something of his mother in him.

Not just the people of Haleth. Of all the Sons of Fëanor, Caranthir was probably the most interracially concerned- except possibly for Maedhros. In addition to the People of Haleth, who ended up departing for Brethil, Caranthir was also closest of the Fëanorians to the Dwarves. He had a very close trading relationship with the Nogrodians, which stood the Eldar well against Glaurung.

And he was also the Fëanorian prince to whom the people of Uldor swore their allegiance. They proved faithless, it is true, but the very fact that Caranthir sought their allegiance is a mark in his favour, not against.

So, though Caranthir is much-maligned by fans as the "nasty" son of Fëanor, one could easily make a case that he was among the best of those same sons. His deliberate seeking out of allies and vassals from among the non-Eldar is in direct contrast to Celegorm and Curufin's scornful treatment of Beren.

[Macalaure]

Good points Formendacil and Lalaith.
Yet we are told there was few love between Caranthir and the dwarves.

I just browsed through the Shibboleth and found out that the name Caranthir = Red-face is not meant metaphorically (which I thought before). He indeed simply had a reddish skin-tone - inherited from his mother. Adding to that his father's hair, I more and more obtain the picture of a quite torn character.

(And, even though I don't get the impression that he was the smartest of the brothers, he was a clever businessman.)

His deliberate seeking out of allies and vassals from among the non-Eldar is in direct contrast to Celegorm and Curufin's scornful treatment of Beren.

They didn't despise Beren because he's a mortal, but because of that Silmaril thing - very bad circumstances to start with.
We don't get to know their general attitude towards men, I think.

[Macalaure]

I came to think about something which I don't think deserves its own thread. I post it here because it relates to the topic and because I'd like to revive this thread.

Why were Feanor's sons distributed over the March of Maedhros as they were? I especially wonder about Maglor, Celegorm and Curufin.

The Gap of Maglor was the most vulnerable spot of the whole siege of Angband. Yet Maglor defended it alone. Wouldn't it have made sense to put Celegorm and Curufin together at this point?

On the other hand, Maedhros planned to keep his brothers away from their cousins for the sake of everyone's peace. Celegorm and Curufin were two of those who Maedhros had to worry most about, yet they are the ones who live most west. Why not have Maglor here?

Also, this way it would have been Maglor who fled to Nargothrond, and many things would have come to pass in a different way in that realm.

[Anguirel]

Ah. I was missing this thread.

Well, as you can see above, I think Maglor was actually rather astute and valiant in military matters. His sobriquet in the Geste is, after all, Maglor the Mighty. He is the slayer of Uldor the Accursed. And he does succeed in guarding the Gap for ages-make no mistake about it, whether there was one brother there or seven, the Gap would have fallen at the time of the Bragollach. The geography simply does not allow sufficient warriors to be deployed to counter Glaurung and a renewed host. Maglor did the best he could.

Your point about Maglor's superior diplomatic abilities is a good one-he was present at the Feast of Reuniting, with Maedhros-but don't forget that Celegorm and Curufin had a fine veneer of these attributes as well. And some genuine diplomatic qualities. Their combined oratory could exert vast influence, vaster than that of any other Elf save Feanor, I suspect; Celegorm was a dynamic leader in a crisis, and is recorded as rescuing Orodreth.

Swapping round the brothers could make for fascinating fanfiction though.

Now, I ought to get round to contributing my views on Caranthir-many of which have been ably laid out previously, though.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I came to think about something which I don't think deserves its own thread. I post it here because it relates to the topic and because I'd like to revive this thread.

Why were Feanor's sons distributed over the March of Maedhros as they were? I especially wonder about Maglor, Celegorm and Curufin.

The Gap of Maglor was the most vulnerable spot of the whole siege of Angband. Yet Maglor defended it alone. Wouldn't it have made sense to put Celegorm and Curufin together at this point?

On the other hand, Maedhros planned to keep his brothers away from their cousins for the sake of everyone's peace. Celegorm and Curufin were two of those who Maedhros had to worry most about, yet they are the ones who live most west. Why not have Maglor here?

Also, this way it would have been Maglor who fled to Nargothrond, and many things would have come to pass in a different way in that realm.

Ah, but you ignore certain facets of Beleriand's geography... The Pass of Aglon and the surrounding area may have been westward-most of the Fëanorian holdings, but it was also pretty much a dead-end street. Not very many Elves came down Nan Dungortheb to hang out with Celegorm and Curufin. The only people we know to have passed through that land were Aredhel, coming east from Gondolin, and later going back west with Maeglin, and Beren crossing it north/south from Dorthonion to Doriath. And in both cases, attention is paid to the fact that the land between the Ered Gorgoroth and the north-march of Doriath was NOT a place for the tender, nor a place much-frequented by anybody of sense.

To the north-west of Aglon lays Dorthonion- but we sort of have mountains there to prevent a real east/west flow of traffic from the lands of Aegnor.

To the south-west of Aglon lies Doriath- closed to most of the Noldor anyway, and certainly to any Fëanorians.

So Aglon was definitely not the Front Door to Himring (whatever the tourism promoters may have said). If anything, it was the end-of-the-hallway closet of the House of Fëanor.

The Gap of Maglor, on the other hand, was quite probably the main door to East Beleriand, for the Noldor. While it would be equally easy to come up the southern way, 'neath Doriath, past Estolad, and up through the lands of Amras, it would be a much longer journey for Fingon and any other Fingolfinians coming from Hithlum, than just heading across the Ard-galen- and prior to the Bragollach, this was fairly safe territory. We are even told the Noldor grazed their horses here.

As for contact between Nargothrond and Himring, I'll admit to not seeing a huge distance difference between the North route through the Gap and the south route through Amras's lands. But distance aside, there would have been a lot more settlements and civilization on the northern route- which also would have taken any travelling ambassadors from Nargothrond right through/past the Finarfinian fief of Dorthonion.

*End Talking. It's possible... not having a map... that I've shot myself in the foot with an incorrect statement somewhere... I hope not... that's embarassing*

[Macalaure]

That makes sense. Thank you!