Ainulindale in Latin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nurumaiel · 05-07-2006, 11:30 AM

How wonderful! For the past two years I've been studying Latin on and off. I've finally found a study method that works for me, and now I have inspiration to really study hard. Several other members of my family will be delighted as well.

Excellent work. I can only image how challenging and time-consuming it must be, but it is well-appreciated.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 05-04-2007, 04:20 PM

Wow! This is just beautiful! It must have been quite a lot of work. Only I must say, the declination of "Ainu" in plural looks quite... strange. But that's normal, of course, adopting words from other languages leads to transform them, and especially Latin had its share of it... but plural "Ainua" must've sounded terrible in Elves' ears

Anyway... great work!
(it occured to me that I might attempt to rewrite Ainulindalë in ancient greek, but who'd bother to read it?

)

Nogrod · 05-04-2007, 05:34 PM

Just great! I do love this text!

And it reminds me of my days at the university as well...

But to make a semi-critical point also: you seem to have adopted a systematic way of cutting the sentences with a comma before every "and". That was the first thing that I noticed. Then I started seeing more rhytmical punctuations that made me think of the style and sounding of the sentences written there. And they were getting increasingly familiar...

I don't know if that's a conscious decision, but for what I know that's the Vulgata Latin and not the classical or "archaic" or the "later" one.

Using Vulgata's Biblical dicta might be well grounded in regards to Tolkien's text (he himself seems to be somewhat happy with a similar kind of solution but the English version feels not as underlinedly Biblical as this Latin translation). I do not wish to challenge your choice if it's a deliberate one anyhow.

But to my ears it sounds more like the Vulgata (very humanly mistranslated as all the historians know and as such more than a child of it's time) than the Ur-Myth from the distant past I myself see Tolkien's Ainulindalë to "come from" or where I would see Tolkien to reach out.

But that's a minor point and anyway your version is just splendid!

Aiwendil · 05-04-2007, 06:04 PM

I'm glad you like it.

Legate: Yes, some of the declensions of proper names look strange, partly because Quenya is itself a language that declines nouns. It's particularly striking in cases where the form we usually encounter in Quenya is the plural, since I based all decisions as to how to decline names on the nominative singular. So for example instead of starting with "Ainur" (the form we see most often) and trying to decide how to decline it, I started with "Ainu". I also made the somewhat dubious decision to treat "Ainu" as a (very rare) 4th declension neuter, since it resembles "cornu" and "genu". A lot of proper nouns were troublesome, actually - for instance, "Elf" - I vacillated between translating this as "nympha" (or something along those lines) and (what I eventually chose) just rendering it "Alfus".

Nogrod: The somewhat vulgate style was not really a conscious decision on my part, though I agree that the finished product looks more like late Imperial Latin than like Cicero. I think it's a result of my attempt to preserve the style of the English, which has a lot of ". . ., and . . ., and . . ." sort of stuff. But now that I think about it, I suppose I did also have the Vulgate Bible in the back of my mind - or rather the little of the Vulgate that I've actually read (about half of Genesis).

I have been working, rather haltingly, on the Valaquenta as well, and when (and if) I finish it, I'll put it up also.

Edit: Actually, I've just remembered it was not the Vulgata that I read parts of; it was the older Vetus Latina - though that's still "Late Latin" and differs significantly from the Classical style.

Nogrod · 05-04-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I think it's a result of my attempt to preserve the style of the English, which has a lot of ". . ., and . . ., and . . ." sort of stuff.

Which English?

Sorry. No offence or anything like that. I do admire your work.

Just couldn't resist this one in relation to the nicely detailed differences of Latin we're speaking here about...

(Nicely detailed? The real cognoscenti would give us a much more detailed analysis of styles...

)

the guy who be short · 05-14-2007, 09:17 AM

I have my Latin Language 1 GCSE exam tomorrow. This is a great resource! Gratias ago.

Aiwendil · 08-28-2007, 05:52 PM

I finished and added the Valaquenta. Again, be warned that my Latin skills are not all that great and that the text is far from guaranteed to be grammatically correct. If anyone finds mistakes, I'd be much obbliged if they would point them out to me.

05-07-2006, 11:30 AM	#1
Nurumaiel Vice of Twilight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: on a mountain Posts: 1,121	How wonderful! For the past two years I've been studying Latin on and off. I've finally found a study method that works for me, and now I have inspiration to really study hard. Several other members of my family will be delighted as well. Excellent work. I can only image how challenging and time-consuming it must be, but it is well-appreciated. __________________ In the fury of the moment I can see the Master's hand in every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.

05-04-2007, 04:20 PM	#2
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Wow! This is just beautiful! It must have been quite a lot of work. Only I must say, the declination of "Ainu" in plural looks quite... strange. But that's normal, of course, adopting words from other languages leads to transform them, and especially Latin had its share of it... but plural "Ainua" must've sounded terrible in Elves' ears Anyway... great work! (it occured to me that I might attempt to rewrite Ainulindalë in ancient greek, but who'd bother to read it? ) __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

05-04-2007, 05:34 PM	#3
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	Just great! I do love this text! And it reminds me of my days at the university as well... But to make a semi-critical point also: you seem to have adopted a systematic way of cutting the sentences with a comma before every "and". That was the first thing that I noticed. Then I started seeing more rhytmical punctuations that made me think of the style and sounding of the sentences written there. And they were getting increasingly familiar... I don't know if that's a conscious decision, but for what I know that's the Vulgata Latin and not the classical or "archaic" or the "later" one. Using Vulgata's Biblical dicta might be well grounded in regards to Tolkien's text (he himself seems to be somewhat happy with a similar kind of solution but the English version feels not as underlinedly Biblical as this Latin translation). I do not wish to challenge your choice if it's a deliberate one anyhow. But to my ears it sounds more like the Vulgata (very humanly mistranslated as all the historians know and as such more than a child of it's time) than the Ur-Myth from the distant past I myself see Tolkien's Ainulindalë to "come from" or where I would see Tolkien to reach out. But that's a minor point and anyway your version is just splendid! __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... Last edited by Nogrod; 05-04-2007 at 05:38 PM.

05-04-2007, 06:04 PM	#4
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I'm glad you like it. Legate: Yes, some of the declensions of proper names look strange, partly because Quenya is itself a language that declines nouns. It's particularly striking in cases where the form we usually encounter in Quenya is the plural, since I based all decisions as to how to decline names on the nominative singular. So for example instead of starting with "Ainur" (the form we see most often) and trying to decide how to decline it, I started with "Ainu". I also made the somewhat dubious decision to treat "Ainu" as a (very rare) 4th declension neuter, since it resembles "cornu" and "genu". A lot of proper nouns were troublesome, actually - for instance, "Elf" - I vacillated between translating this as "nympha" (or something along those lines) and (what I eventually chose) just rendering it "Alfus". Nogrod: The somewhat vulgate style was not really a conscious decision on my part, though I agree that the finished product looks more like late Imperial Latin than like Cicero. I think it's a result of my attempt to preserve the style of the English, which has a lot of ". . ., and . . ., and . . ." sort of stuff. But now that I think about it, I suppose I did also have the Vulgate Bible in the back of my mind - or rather the little of the Vulgate that I've actually read (about half of Genesis). I have been working, rather haltingly, on the Valaquenta as well, and when (and if) I finish it, I'll put it up also. Edit: Actually, I've just remembered it was not the Vulgata that I read parts of; it was the older Vetus Latina - though that's still "Late Latin" and differs significantly from the Classical style. Last edited by Aiwendil; 05-04-2007 at 06:22 PM.

05-14-2007, 09:17 AM	#6
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	I have my Latin Language 1 GCSE exam tomorrow. This is a great resource! Gratias ago.

08-28-2007, 05:52 PM	#7
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I finished and added the Valaquenta. Again, be warned that my Latin skills are not all that great and that the text is far from guaranteed to be grammatically correct. If anyone finds mistakes, I'd be much obbliged if they would point them out to me.