Gandalf a "steward?"

[Boromir88]

Legolas brings up a good point and it goes to the very beginning of this thread. The two different definitions of the word "Stewards."

Denethor's "Steward" is to rule and run the Kingdom as davem points out. Which was the job of the Stewards until a King should return. Hence the title "ruling Steward."

Where Gandalf's "steward," is to act more as an emissary of the Vala and Eru, and to be a caretaker. Also, I would like to point out Formendacil's point when Gandalf says:
"For I am a steward."
The keyword being "a," Gandalf is not the only "steward" there are others. And as Legolas shows Gandalf wants others to act as "stewards."

It comes down to the difference between the two definitions. Tolkien was a linguist, as he purposefully left one capitilized and the other not to emphasize the difference between "Steward" and "steward."

[Selmo]

"Steward" in Denethor's case is capitalised because it's a title, not a common noun.

One point that comes out of the conversation between Gandalf and Denethor is that although Denethor has the title Steward, he is not acting as a steward. A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself. He may be sitting on a plain wooden chair on the lowest step below the Throne but he is, in effect, not steward but Ruler. He calls himself the Lord of Gondor and acts as, and believes himself to be, the King. He rejects the idea that the line of the Kings could ever be re-established.

Gandalf tells him that he should be a steward as well as having the title Steward. As a steward of Gondor, his care for the land and its people should out-weigh his pride as Steward of Gondor, and that that care should mean swallowing his pride and accepting Gandalf's help and advice.

* * * * * * * * * * *

Some posters have suggested that one of Gandalf's roles as a steward is that of Envoy or messenger of The Valar.
I don't see it. If he were a messenger, he would be proclaiming the message he had been given by his masters. He doesn't do that. He never speaks of The Valar or his own origins. Only Cirdan and a few others know that he has come from The West and no-one, except perhaps Galadrial, realises that he is Maiar.
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[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Selmo

One point that comes out of the conversation between Gandalf and Denethor is that although Denethor has the title Steward, he is not acting as a steward. A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself ...

Gandalf tells him that he should be a steward as well as having the title Steward. As a steward of Gondor, his care for the land and its people should out-weigh his pride as Steward of Gondor.

(emphasis added)

Interesting that Tolkien, in one of his Letters I think, describes Denethor as a politician, as there is a message there for today's politicians ...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Selmo

A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself. He may be sitting on a plain wooden chair on the lowest step below the Throne but he is, in effect, not steward but Ruler. He calls himself the Lord of Gondor and acts as, and believes himself to be, the King. He rejects the idea that the line of the Kings could ever be re-established.

Well, there are no more Kings of Gondor, & more importantly no-one with a legal claim to the Kingship. The last king of the line of Anarion is long dead. That means that there will be no new king as far as Denethor is concerned. The House of Isildur is 'Long bereft of lordship & dignity' – the first part of that statement is absolutely correct from Denethor's pov. The second part is at least arguable (in terms of the 'House'. The Arnorian kings were pretty useless.

Hence Denethor is king in all but name & has not only the power, but more importantly the responsibility of the king. Of course he has come to identify himself with the realm & has a pretty inflated ego by the end, but based on what he knows of them the House of Arnor are a disaster waiting to happen. We know Aragorn, he does not. There's a war on, & disaster is just around the corner. Then some wizard pops up & intends to put the last loser of a line of losers on the throne. What is any war leader going to do in that situation. And Gandalf doesn't help Denethor in the slightest way to understand the situation. Denethor has isolated himself & come to believe that the safety of the Realm depends on his rule. Put yourself in his position – would you just hand over the rule of the city & realm to a total stranger with no rightful claim just because some wizard pops up & tells you to? His own line has failed – Faramir has just handed the Ring over to Sauron by letting Frodo go.

I think there is a misunderstanding of the role of 'Steward' in this context. We're not talking of the political equivalent of wine stewardhere, but of someone who stands in for the King. In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway.

[Rhod the Red]

"In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway." Why? Isn't the line of Isildur legitmaite in your view?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

"In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway." Why? Isn't the line of Isildur legitmaite in your view?

Pelendur & the Council decided it wasn't legitimate in 1944. My view is beside the point, really. Aragorn did not have a legal claim on the throne according to Gondorian law.

[Boromir88]

davem, I agree to an extent. According to the rules set down by Pelendur and the Council, Arvedui's claim was illegitimate (which the law itself they made is what was illegitimate. They found a loophole and they took advantage of it. Politics and power will do that. )

The loophole in Arvedui's claim is he claimed to be Isildur's heir, and was restoring the High Kingship. Where the Council found the loophole that Isildur forsook his Kingdom:

The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anßrion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor.~Appendix A: Of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion

And we are told that:

But soon he departed, and after he had given counsel to Meneldil, his brother's son, and had committed to him the realm of the south, he bore away the ring, to be an heirloom of his house, and marched north from Gondor by the way Elendil had come; and he forsook the South Kingdom, for he purposed to take up his father';s realm in Eriador, far from the shadow of the Black Land.~The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

This is what the Council uses to deny Arvedui's claim. The law was illegitimate, and aside from our opinions about that law, this was the law Gondor had made and Arvedui's claim was illegitimate. But there's a difference between Arvedui's claim and Aragorn's claim.

Arvedui claimed to be Isildur's heir and was restoring the High Kingship. The Council said, na can't do that because Isildur gave up his rule here (even though if we are told he didn't), but still that's what the Council had made law. Aragorn claimed to be Elendil's heir and was restoring the High Kingship. Aragorn was probably aware of Arvedui's claim being rejected, so all the more important to claim to be Elendil's heir, who indeed was the High King, and restore that Kingship. Where Isildur (again according to the Council) had relinquished his rule in Gondor and was not the High King, he gave up his rule in Gondor and went to rule Arnor.

Aragorn most likely knew about Gondor's ruling in Arvedui's claim, hence the importance of claiming to be Elendil's heir and not Isildur's. Which I think makes it look as if Aragorn's claim was in accordance to Gondor's law.