Gandalf a "steward?"

[davem]

Originally Posted by Selmo

A steward serves the interestes of another. Denethor isn't doing that. He thinks that he is serving Gondor but, as he sees himself as an embodiment of Gondor (a function of a King), he is really serving himself. He may be sitting on a plain wooden chair on the lowest step below the Throne but he is, in effect, not steward but Ruler. He calls himself the Lord of Gondor and acts as, and believes himself to be, the King. He rejects the idea that the line of the Kings could ever be re-established.

Well, there are no more Kings of Gondor, & more importantly no-one with a legal claim to the Kingship. The last king of the line of Anarion is long dead. That means that there will be no new king as far as Denethor is concerned. The House of Isildur is 'Long bereft of lordship & dignity' – the first part of that statement is absolutely correct from Denethor's pov. The second part is at least arguable (in terms of the 'House'. The Arnorian kings were pretty useless.

Hence Denethor is king in all but name & has not only the power, but more importantly the responsibility of the king. Of course he has come to identify himself with the realm & has a pretty inflated ego by the end, but based on what he knows of them the House of Arnor are a disaster waiting to happen. We know Aragorn, he does not. There's a war on, & disaster is just around the corner. Then some wizard pops up & intends to put the last loser of a line of losers on the throne. What is any war leader going to do in that situation. And Gandalf doesn't help Denethor in the slightest way to understand the situation. Denethor has isolated himself & come to believe that the safety of the Realm depends on his rule. Put yourself in his position – would you just hand over the rule of the city & realm to a total stranger with no rightful claim just because some wizard pops up & tells you to? His own line has failed – Faramir has just handed the Ring over to Sauron by letting Frodo go.

I think there is a misunderstanding of the role of 'Steward' in this context. We're not talking of the political equivalent of wine stewardhere, but of someone who stands in for the King. In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway.

[Rhod the Red]

"In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway." Why? Isn't the line of Isildur legitmaite in your view?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

"In hereditary terms Denethor probably does have more right to rule Gondor than Aragorn anyway." Why? Isn't the line of Isildur legitmaite in your view?

Pelendur & the Council decided it wasn't legitimate in 1944. My view is beside the point, really. Aragorn did not have a legal claim on the throne according to Gondorian law.

[Boromir88]

davem, I agree to an extent. According to the rules set down by Pelendur and the Council, Arvedui's claim was illegitimate (which the law itself they made is what was illegitimate. They found a loophole and they took advantage of it. Politics and power will do that. )

The loophole in Arvedui's claim is he claimed to be Isildur's heir, and was restoring the High Kingship. Where the Council found the loophole that Isildur forsook his Kingdom:

The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anßrion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor.~Appendix A: Of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion

And we are told that:

But soon he departed, and after he had given counsel to Meneldil, his brother's son, and had committed to him the realm of the south, he bore away the ring, to be an heirloom of his house, and marched north from Gondor by the way Elendil had come; and he forsook the South Kingdom, for he purposed to take up his father';s realm in Eriador, far from the shadow of the Black Land.~The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

This is what the Council uses to deny Arvedui's claim. The law was illegitimate, and aside from our opinions about that law, this was the law Gondor had made and Arvedui's claim was illegitimate. But there's a difference between Arvedui's claim and Aragorn's claim.

Arvedui claimed to be Isildur's heir and was restoring the High Kingship. The Council said, na can't do that because Isildur gave up his rule here (even though if we are told he didn't), but still that's what the Council had made law. Aragorn claimed to be Elendil's heir and was restoring the High Kingship. Aragorn was probably aware of Arvedui's claim being rejected, so all the more important to claim to be Elendil's heir, who indeed was the High King, and restore that Kingship. Where Isildur (again according to the Council) had relinquished his rule in Gondor and was not the High King, he gave up his rule in Gondor and went to rule Arnor.

Aragorn most likely knew about Gondor's ruling in Arvedui's claim, hence the importance of claiming to be Elendil's heir and not Isildur's. Which I think makes it look as if Aragorn's claim was in accordance to Gondor's law.

[narfforc]

There are greater things here than the petty squabbles of politics and claims. Aragorns ancestry cannot and will not be denied, only through him will there be reunification, only through him will there be the saving of the last remnents of the Dunedain, and that includes Gondor. It is not in a name, nor the imaginary lines drawn on the soil of Middle-earth that he claims leadership over the world of men, it is in his blood that he is the greatest man alive during the closing years of The Third Age, for who else of The Atani is descended from Beren and Luthien, who else can weild Anduril, who else can wear The Elessar and The Ring of Barahir, these tokens are ancient and their history predate Gondor and Arnor, they are given to the rightful heir of Beren, Earendil and Elendil, who of the race of man can claim these to his own, not for nothing is Aragorn named Estel, remember the very existance of the Free West was at stake here. Is Gandalf the Steward of Eru, when he crowns Aragorn is he handing over the stewardship of Middle-Earth to the Dominion of Men, have Men been given lordship over the world that is, only for it to come to this?............................................. ........

[davem]

I take your point. Its arguable though that if Aragorn had just walked in & claimed the High Kingship while Denethor was alive he would have split the realm & we'd have seen a repetition of the Kin-strife. Denethor could certainly have claimed that Elendil had bequeathed the realms to his sons & therefore only the Heirs of Anarion had the rightful claim to rule Gondor. This was clearly Aragorn's fear even after Denethor's death - otherwise why not proclaim himself after the battle of Pelennor Fields? I note that Faramir asked the people at the coronation if they would have Aragorn as their King. Isildur did not so much 'relinquish' rule of Gondor as acknowledge that his nephew was next in succession after Anarion.

In other words both sides had valid points to make. Denethor ruled as Steward of the decendants of Anarion, not of Elendil. For all Aragorn could claim the High Kingship he could have just been laughed out of court. The argument would have been on technicalities as far as I can see & in the world of realpolitik such technicalities are just words. Aragorn was not a direct heir & did not have a claim to the Kingship of Gondor & Denethor knew that. Aragorn was playing politics as much as Denethor. His real claim was based on his success in the war against Sauron. He was the closest thing to an 'Heir to the throne', but he wasn't actually one in a real sense. I suspect Pelendur & the Council would have rejected Arvedui's claim if he had invoked his descent from Elendil in the way they rejected his descent from Isildur.

Note, my point was based on 'legality', not moral or ethical 'right'. Legally, Aragorn's claim to the rule of Gondor is desputable, while Denethor's & his heirs is not. Hence Denethor's right to rule by inheritance ('heredity') is greater than Aragorn's.

[narfforc]

I agree in principal with most of what you say Davem , however if Aragorn had declared himself to the people of Minas Tirith I doubt they would have rejected the Weilder of The Sword that was Broken, The Dead men of Dunharrow had no doubts, even Eomer can see the advantage of Anduril fighting alongside The Sons of Eorl. The people of Gondor were on their last legs, I think they needed HOPE.

[davem]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I agree in principal with most of what you say Davem , however if Aragorn had declared himself to the people of Minas Tirith I doubt they would have rejected the Weilder of The Sword that was Broken, The Dead men of Dunharrow had no doubts, even Eomer can see the advantage of Anduril fighting alongside The Sons of Eorl. The people of Gondor were on their last legs, I think they needed HOPE.

No - & in the end they didn't reject him, but that was for a couple of 'negative' reasons as well as the positive ones you mention. First, Denethor was dead, second, Faramir had accepted Aragorn's claim. If Denethor had lived, or Faramir had rejected Aragorn's claim there would have been a split Probably not 50-50 but large enough to cause problems of a serious kind. The kin-strife was still in the minds of the people. The worst outcome imaginable, aside from a victory by Sauron would have been a victory over Sauron followed by civil war. Certainly any claim by an earlier descendant of Isildur (or of Elendil if you want) would have been rejected. Arathorn could have claimed the Kingship but I can't see any notice being taken of him.

Denethor or his heirs (I include Imrahil as well) had to either be out of the picture or to accept Aragorn's claim as well as Aragorn achieving victory in the spectacular way he did in order for him to attain the throne without splitting the realm & bringing more bloodshed.