The Westward Road

[Mithalwen]

Yes, and I am no sailor but I am not sure that their ships - at least of the type that Aragorn captured would have been up to that sort of a journey. Going up the Anduin is one thing but the open sea? Crawling around the coastline would have taken forever and part of the coastline looks ratehr like the notorious Bay of Biscay. Althought I suppose the Black Numenoreans would have had the same seafaring knowledge as the true ones. They would also have had to get past Dol Amroth which seems to have had naval power.

So either the danger was in reaching the sea or Sauron had other resources. I am not sure the council anticipated the winged beasts but even so using them over water seems unlikely (though the thought of them landing on an elf ship as a Harrier does on the Ark Royal is quite funny).

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

So either the danger was in reaching the sea or Sauron had other resources. I am not sure the council anticipated the winged beasts but even so using them over water seems unlikely (though the thought of them landing on an elf ship as a Harrier does on the Ark Royal is quite funny).

Indeed. But if the ship was loaded with elf-lords of high power such as Glorfindel and the ship had Gandalf in it, I wonder if the nazgûl alone would have succeeded to take the ring. They could, of course, sink the ship, but that maybe wouldn't help their cause at all since the Ring'd be down in the bottom of the sea.

Did Sauron have vampires in his service in the Third Age? For if he had, he could have sent a nazgûl - vampire assault and that would have been a match even for a bunch of elf-lords.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Indeed. But if the ship was loaded with elf-lords of high power such as Glorfindel and the ship had Gandalf in it, I wonder if the nazgûl alone would have succeeded to take the ring. They could, of course, sink the ship, but that maybe wouldn't help their cause at all since the Ring'd be down in the bottom of the sea.

Did Sauron have vampires in his service in the Third Age? For if he had, he could have sent a nazgûl - vampire assault and that would have been a match even for a bunch of elf-lords.

Oooh don't forget that Nazgul and Water don't mix!!!! All Glorfindel (who can face down all of them at once more or less) would have to do is light a torch and the Ring wraith would be caught between their least favourite elements. They would have to walk the plank! Wasn't Thuringwethil about it for vampires in ME?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Oooh don't forget that Nazgul and Water don't mix!!!! All Glorfindel (who can face down all of them at once more or less) would have to do is light a torch and the Ring wraith would be caught between their least favourite elements.

He should just be careful not to set the sails on fire...

But that is, actually, a good point. If the nazgûl didn't like water (which I totally forgot though I last read that part from LotR only a few weeks ago ), Sauron couldn't have sent them to the Sea. I don't mean that he wasn't capable of forcing them to go there. But I think the result would have been a disaster.

[Mithalwen]

Indeed fire on boats is seriously bad news (despite the abundance of available water) - but we have to assume that Sauron's skills as a tactician are superior to that (though there is a theory that military intelligence is an oxymoron - but my pa would kill me for saying that!). Almost feel a bit sorry for the Nazgul - can you imagin hopw bad they would feel if they can't ford a river but get forced to fly miles over the sea.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Indeed fire on boats is seriously bad news (despite the abundance of available water) - but we have to assume that Sauron's skills as a tactician are superior to that .

And maybe he had so superior tactician's skills to us so that we can't possibly imagine how could he have assaulted the elven ship... :P

Almost feel a bit sorry for the Nazgul - can you imagin hopw bad they would feel if they can't ford a river but get forced to fly miles over the sea

Aww... Feeling sorry for the nazgûl. That must be the strangest feeling I've ever had.

Anyway, in the Council it is said that Sauron will watch the westward road. Did Sauron have some water-monsters as spies? Or fish? Or seabirds? (Eek! Not penguins, right? )

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Anyway, in the Council it is said that Sauron will watch the westward road. Did Sauron have some water-monsters as spies? Or fish? Or seabirds? (Eek! Not penguins, right? )

I think that refers to the road west through M-e, not to the Straight Road.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And maybe he had so superior tactician's skills to us so that we can't possibly imagine how could he have assaulted the elven ship... :P
Aww... Feeling sorry for the nazgûl. That must be the strangest feeling I've ever had.

Anyway, in the Council it is said that Sauron will watch the westward road. Did Sauron have some water-monsters as spies? Or fish? Or seabirds? (Eek! Not penguins, right? )

Don't worry Lommy.

I am sure that the penguins were agents of Ulmo who of all the Valar maintained the the most interest in ME. Crustaceans however were servants of the dark lord

[davem]

'Then if the Ring cannot be kept from him for ever by strength,' said Glorfindel, 'two things only remain for us to attempt: to send it over the Sea, or to destroy it.' 'But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here possess,' said Elrond. 'And they who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it: for good or ill it belongs to Middle-earth; it is for us who still dwell here to deal with it.' (Council of Elrond)

I think it is clear that it cannot be sent over the Sea from Elrond's words given here. It seems plain that the Straight Road was not simply open for all comers - even Elves. They might be permitted to return, but only in certain circumstances - with the Ring would not be one of them.

In other words, its not the case that any Elf (even any High Elf) could just hop into a ship & go back - they would have to be allowed in. Elrond states the Valar would not receive the Ring - it belongs to Middle-earth. This is clearly the point. the only place it can be destroyed is in the fires of Orodruin, the place it was made. Hence, even if it could be taken into the West it could not be destroyed there. If it could not be destroyed Sauron would continue to exist & he had already all but won victory. If the Ring was in the West it would be unassailable, Sauron would be invincible & his victory would be guaranteed permanently. The very worst thing that could be done with it would be to remove it to a place of safety. And of course, there's no reason to believe it would not work on the Elves (& Maiar) in the Blessed Realm & bring disaster there too.

Elrond's words are interesting 'For good or ill..' he says. My reading is that he is saying that it is actually a good thing that the Ring remain in Middle-earth because while there it can be destroyed, & if the worst comes to the worst, only Middle-earth is in danger, & Sauron's malice will be contained in Endor.

Whatever. The Ring cannot be taken into the West as the Valar will not allow it to be. If it was cast into the depths of the Sea it would still exist, & therefore so would Sauron, & hence he would win, because he is far more powerful than his opponents. Sauron des not need the Ring to achieve victory - which is already assured - the only thing that can defeat him is its destruction & the only place it can be destroyed is the place of its forging - in Middle-earth.

[Thinlómien]

I agree with you, davem, that I was really no option to send the Ring over the sea, since it wouldn't have worked very well.

However, they discuss it a lot in the Council, which, I think, proves that the Council really considered it an option (maybe with the exception of Elrond and Gandalf).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I agree with you, davem, that I was really no option to send the Ring over the sea, since it wouldn't have worked very well.

However, they discuss it a lot in the Council, which, I think, proves that the Council really considered it an option (maybe with the exception of Elrond and Gandalf).

Well, they also considered giving it to Tom, an idea which they had to be encouraged to drop quick smart. They were desperate & looking for the easy way out.