Gandalf a "steward?"

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

If Aragorn had decided to follow the Orcs I think its more than likely he would have seen that as a betrayal of his duty to Gondor & that Boromir would have gone back to Minas Tirith alone, perhaps feeling betrayed by Aragorn.

Boromir gave his life in an effort to save Merry and Pippin from capture. Had he survived that encounter, but nevertheless failed to prevent their capture, I suspect that he would have felt duty-bound to help rescue them. In such circusmtances, it is, I think, quite likely that his respect for Aragorn, and therefore the chances of him accepting Aragron as the returning King, would have increased.

[davem]

We won't ever know. I don't see Boromir as being all that 'nice' - certainly the movie rewrote him as a flawed hero, as opposed to the proud, but often thuggish, warrior of the book. Which is not to say he didn't have some good in him. His final act was selfless & worthy of the respect Aragorn & the others show him (respect for his prowess in battle, not for his social skills or pleasant company btw). But this is one moment. He died heroically, but his concern all along was with Gondor. His repentance came with the realisation that he was dying. If he had succeeded in avoiding death I don't see any reason that he would have changed essentially. He wouldn't have turned into a Faramir.

The idea that he would have 'betrayed' his city, his people & most importantly his father by going off on a wild goose chase after a couple of Hobbits is something that is not in character for him - much though we all might like the 'Happily ever after-ness' of it. Boromir was 'lucky' - he achieved a heroic death & had time to 'confess his sins'. As B88 has so cogently argued, though, things had not come to the 'pinch'. Boromir, I think, would have sided with his father. Denethor would have determined whether Boromir accepted or rejected Aragorn. He wouldn't have chosen Aragorn over his father, if push came to shove.

[The Saucepan Man]

You are right. We will never know.

But I think you may be underestimating the effect that Boromir's failed attempt to seize the Ring, and subsequent realisation of his folly, had on him.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You are right. We will never know.

But I think you may be underestimating the effect that Boromir's failed attempt to seize the Ring, and subsequent realisation of his folly, had on him.

I don't see book Boromir doing what you suggest. Movie Boromir probably would. But they are different characters. Apart from anything else Boromir is a soldier & not to return to Minas Tirith would be tantamount to deserting his post in wartime. Supporting Aragorn over his father's rejection of him would be equivalent to treason as Denethor is not only his father but also his CiC.

Now, Faramir effectively did both those things, but Faramir is a different kind of man altogether.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see book Boromir doing what you suggest. Movie Boromir probably would. But they are different characters. Apart from anything else Boromir is a soldier & not to return to Minas Tirith would be tantamount to deserting his post in wartime. Supporting Aragorn over his father's rejection of him would be equivalent to treason as Denethor is not only his father but also his CiC.

Now, Faramir effectively did both those things, but Faramir is a different kind of man altogether.

My mind's not made up either way- though since I lean Davem-wise in this matter, I guess I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here. Anyway, if Boromir is a soldier, then the Chain of Command should be taken into account. If Aragorn were to determine that following the Hobbits was the best course of honour, then if Boromir had accepted him as rightful king, then that's the way to go.

Denethor WAS Boromir's commander-in-chief. If he accepted Aragorn as rightful king- which we are given to understand he did- then Aragorn's right supercedes that of Denethor's.

Whether or not Boromir would consider Aragorn's decision as right, and if he thought it wrong and thus becoming a potential breeding ground for him rejecting Aragorn's claim, is another matter. As of Parth Galen, though, Boromir is shown to have accepted, as of then, Aragorn's claim, and thus Aragorn's decision would have outranked his preference... After all, is one deserting one's post if one is following one's commander?

Again, just playing the Devil's Advocate.

[davem]

Anyway, if Boromir is a soldier, then the Chain of Command should be taken into account. If Aragorn were to determine that following the Hobbits was the best course of honour, then if Boromir had accepted him as rightful king, then that's the way to go…

As of Parth Galen, though, Boromir is shown to have accepted, as of then, Aragorn's claim,

But had he 'accepted him as rightful king?' I don't see that from his words. Of course, he did obey Aragorn's orders to find & protect the Hobbits, but was he obeying his king, or merely the leader of the Company?

After all, is one deserting one's post if one is following one's commander?

Technically yes- if that 'commander' has not established his legal right to command or been accepted by the Government, Army & People.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, he did obey Aragorn's orders to find & protect the Hobbits, but was he obeying his king, or merely the leader of the Company?

Does it matter? The pertinent fact is that he obeyed those orders and agreed to protect the Hobbits. And, since the Hobbits were captured while under his willing protection, surely he would see it as his duty to aid in seeking to liberate them? He was a man of honour, was he not? I can't see him just abandoning his charges, particularly not after the realisation of his Ring-folly.

And yes, davem, I am talking about book Boromir.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

Technically yes- if that 'commander' has not established his legal right to command or been accepted by the Government, Army & People.

Continuing from my previous Devil's Advocate line of thought: Aragorn was, as soon as he started heading to Gondor, the King, if as yet uncrowned. If Boromir accepted his claim as valid (and I would read it that way, even if you would not), then he has to take Aragorn as King right now. The Palantír, for example, responded to Aragorn as it's proper owner immediately, although he had not yet been acclaimed King, unfurled the Royal banner, or been crowned.

A king, if his claim is legitimate (and while Aragorn's claim was legally debatable, the Palantír issue should prove that it is correct) then he is King the INSTANT the previous king died. Now, in Aragorn's case, the last King of Gondor was Eärnur, and the last King of Arthedain was Arvedui- so it's not quite the same situation. But as soon as he revealed his lineage to Boromir in Rivendell, had Narsil reforged, and declared his intent to seek and aid Minas Tirith, he was declaring himself the rightful Heir- and with no King alive, the rightful heir IS the rightful king. To use a modern analogy, the instant Queen Elizabeth II passes away, Prince Charles will BE Charles III, King of Great Britain and Northern Island (and King of Canada, for that matter...).