I get knocked down but I get up again - you're never going to keep me down.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Farael

I did not mean for the elves to be called "cowards" but they sure are part of the "passive resistance" rather than the active one. Both kinds of resistance are important, someone has to be able to think for any active meassures to be effective.

Originally Posted by davem

I suspect the truth is that the Elves have cut themselves off for so long that they've lost touch with what's really gong on in the world. The world they knew has changed & they haven't kept up. They were always essentially a backward looking people. They chose to isolate themselves from all change & ended up being left behind.

So maybe the elves were the Europeans in contrast to the Americans today?

Sorry, but this just sounds like so much rhetoric from today's world politics... And surely, it's an arguable point, both in the ME and in the real world.

But I'm not sure, whether to call the elves "backward looking people" in the first instance. I would say, that they were folks that looked to another directions than men.

[Lalwendë]

We have to remember that there were two sorts of Elves, those descended from the Noldor/Eldar and those Elves who had never left Middle-earth in the first place. Those in the latter group were staying there anyway (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Legolas is a rare example of a Silvan Elf who leaves for Valinor?); it was the Eldar who were thinking about leaving.

It seems that both kindreds had started to become isolated, though seemingly for different reasons. The Eldar had maybe started to think of leaving Middle-earth in the hands of Men and so had begun to retreat, but I think the 'ordinary' Elves had become more reclusive out of necessity.

I wonder if this says anything about Elven attitudes in the different kindreds?

Why I wanted to see Elven deaths in LOTR? I simply think it would have underlined the essential tragedy of the idea of the 'long defeat', that evil always rises again, and the struggle against it is futile though necessary. To see an 'immortal' die perhaps underlines the idea. Maybe Elrond could have followed Gil-galad and died at Pelennor? Might have been interesting to show how each 'generation' of Elves took part in the struggle and suffered/was sacrificed for the hundreds of generations of mortals that would follow?

[Rhod the Red]

"the Elves have cut themselves off for so long that they've lost touch with what's really gong on in the world."

Huh? So they didn't know what was happening outside their own borders? No offence, but that view is very disproven by the content of The Lord of the Rings . The leading Elves are very informed, by magical and general scouting sources of the events of late, in Middle-earth and play their part(defensive) against the Dark Power of the East.

Being wary of strangers at your borders does not mean your people are ignorant of what's happening, much less maintaining their own traditions. Does rarely using Westron, the 'Common Speech', represent ignorance? No, just cultural necessity and the lack of linguistic applicability of the CS to Elvish society.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

"the Elves have cut themselves off for so long that they've lost touch with what's really going on in the world."

Huh? So they didn't know what was happening outside their own borders? No offence, but that view is very disproven by the content of The Lord of the Rings . The leading Elves are very informed, by magical and general scouting sources of the events of late, in Middle-earth and play their part(defensive) against the Dark Power of the East.

I was referring to their psychological state, not their level of intelligence. Tolkien is clear on this in a number of letters & comments, where he describes them as 'embalmers' & speaks of them as being essentially backward looking, & being 'pushed backwards' into the future. See my post here