Dueling Wizards Werewolf Suggestion Thread

[Loki]

I am of the opinion that the night one events should be done as thusly:

GW prepares a list of people to scry (Possibly three or four people, as these are common numbers...). Good mod randomly picks one of these as a given gifted.

Much like the GW, the EW prepares a list of wolves, and the evil mod randomly chooses wolves from this list.

This is done so that neither wizard finds out who the other is on night one. This is done under the premise that the wizards, gifted and wolves had existed prior to Night One, and they simply take action on this Night.

Alternate situation:

Good Wizard picks gifted, then EW prepares his(her) possible list of wolves, whom are randomly selected from said list.





The hunter, also, must choose their kill-- they do not automatically kill any wolves that attack them.

I am also of the opinion that the GW should automatically select a seer, but neither of them take any action on Night One. However, these are all my personal choices. The EW has too many other benefits.

Also, this game should almost exclusively be played with a large number of players. Else, the EW won't have a chance. Large being over 10.

[littlemanpoet]

GW Scry on Night One

My rationale for this is that the GW & EW should not find each other on the first night. Possible solutions have been provided for that:

Originally Posted by Diamond

I think that's remedied easily enough by changing the ruling that the GW/EW find out each others' identities by scrying/cursing the same person.

That ruling is in place because it seemed to be the nature of magical power such that the two wizards would sense, and be able to identify each other, in such a case. So it's about trying to be realistic instead of arbitrary and artificial. Not that I have anything against other mods' choices for arbitrary rulings; in and of themselves, arbitrary rulings (that is, mod-initiated & not worrying about 'realism') are not a bad thing; I just don't like to use them.

Originally Posted by Loki

GW prepares a list of people to scry (Possibly three or four people, as these are common numbers...). Good mod randomly picks one of these as a given gifted.

Much like the GW, the EW prepares a list of wolves, and the evil mod randomly chooses wolves from this list.

This is done so that neither wizard finds out who the other is on night one. This is done under the premise that the wizards, gifted and wolves had existed prior to Night One, and they simply take action on this Night.

This is feasible and not overly artificial or abitrary. Worth using, I think.

Also, I think that it is not right for the evil wizard to be down to 2 werewolves before Day One even begins. That's not fair either. Loki's plan could be used to prevent that too.

Number of Posts per Day

I built that problem into the game on purpose. It wasn't hard. Again, it's like real life. On single villager can be in more than one place in the village at a time, and can't possibly keep track of every conversation that's going on in the village, although listening to other villagers' reports can give any other villager a sense of what's been going on, but then they're necessarily depending on the other villagers' perceived veracity. I like that. And there were a number of villagers who provided helpful summaries under the guise of analyses. Very much like things would run in a real village. So I don't mind the huge number of posts in a day. I like it, and support it. It's part of the game. A new "difficulty level" challenge for you accomplished blokes.

Hunter's Powers

Originally Posted by Loki

The hunter, also, must choose their kill-- they do not automatically kill any wolves that attack them.

Any moderator who wished to run a dueling wizards game is free to abide by this. I won't. I don't like a weak hunter. That's why I made the choice I did. If there's some way to find a middle ground between the weak hunter I don't like, and the strong hunter I used in the last game, I'm interested.

Number of Players

Originally Posted by Loki

Also, this game should almost exclusively be played with a large number of players. Else, the EW won't have a chance. Large being over 10.

I absolutely agree. I would say no less than 16 players, and 20 or more is preferrable.

Lynching Tie

And now for a new possibility to increase what I call the "Tolkien Theme" aspect: if the top vote getters are tied, no lynch for the Day. You can see the implications pretty quickly. What do you think?

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

That ruling is in place because it seemed to be the nature of magical power such that the two wizards would sense, and be able to identify each other, in such a case. So it's about trying to be realistic instead of arbitrary and artificial. Not that I have anything against other mods' choices for arbitrary rulings; in and of themselves, arbitrary rulings (that is, mod-initiated & not worrying about 'realism') are not a bad thing; I just don't like to use them.

If it's the RP aspect you're worried about, I think such an event is easily explained. When the two "powers" collide each can surely sense that the other wizard is after the same person, but I don't necessarily see a reason why they should be able to see beyond the veil of wizardy to the "regular villager" behind the power. Especially since they are, technically, not focusing their own powers on each other but on the villager in question. Etc. Frankly, I think all such ideas about the nature of the wizards' powers are arbitrary to the mod, just like an author has the creative say over the nature of magic and how it works in their story. It's all in how you rationalize it to fit the game.

Loki's idea is also feasible, of course. Either way, it could work, and his is better for ensuring that the wizards don't pick each other night one. I am not that against the idea of them finding each other out in such a way, though. Like I said, if one wizard is smart enough to pick the other right off the bat, more power to him! Having a large village is the best defense against this, anyway, since the more people mucking about the better for the wizards to hide. Which is why I think it goes without saying that the village should be large. Plus, has there ever even been a -10 player game on the 'Downs?

[Diamond18]

And now for a new possibility to increase what I call the "Tolkien Theme" aspect: if the top vote getters are tied, no lynch for the Day. You can see the implications pretty quickly. What do you think?

I'm a little puzzled as to why this is more Tolkien themed?

It's an interesting idea, though I fail to see why the villagers should let anything stop them from a little bloodshed. From an RP aspect. It would have to be explained rathr well to really make much sense in the narration. But, laying that aside and looking at it purely from the more strategic aspect of the game, it's very interesting and would make for some intriguing desicions on both sides.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

So it's about trying to be realistic instead of arbitrary and artificial.

Sorry, but I just thought it funny that you said 'realistic' when we're talking about Wizards and Werewolves.


Alright, since I was the GW, most of my suggestions will be concerning such.

1. Let the GW and gifteds PM at Night.

Night is when everything happens. It's when people become cursed/gifted and when they perform the related tasks. Not being able to PM new gifteds right away meant quite a few things against us. I could not bring them up to speed on what the Good Team has been doing up to that point. I could not direct them as to who, if anyone, I wanted to be protected/hunted/dreamed of. In fact, I would much rather PM at Night and not in the Day than have it the way it was. If you want to see an example, look in the WW XXI thread at my post #1046.

2. The new Hunter rules.

Okay, at first I wasn't so sure about these rules. After all, in effect they make the Hunter a Seer until they dream of a wolf. This is because if they hunt someone and they do not die, then the person is obviously innocent. Although, if you want to make it slightly less powerful, you could just limit it to that, and not allow the automatic wolf kill if the Hunter is killed by the wolves. Just say that the Hunter will not Hunt unless they choose a wolf, and then those two automatically die.

3. Stick with the dry runs/simulations. (That is, if they seem fair.)

LMP, you said you made many dry runs and came out fairly even as far as wins and losses were concerned. With that in mind, I'd stick with those rules as best you could. The thing that sort of irked me in this game was when the rules changed. The Hunter role, I was surprised at, but, being a Good Teamer, wasn't opposed to. And it made sense to do it because that was how it had gone in your runs. But Night 4 was not something that had been in your pre-game simulations, so I was *ahem* not happy. In the end, it worked out very much in the Evil Teams favor. We were able to eliminate (counting wolf-Loki) 6 wolves in 7 Days, and still ended up losing with 3 wolves left.

4. The Evil Team still has a huge advantage.

Even barring Night 4, the Evil Team has it made. Virtually unlimited wolf-making potential, yesterDay's innocents might be wolves toDay, multiple nightly kills, etc. The Good Team is limited to 3 gifteds, only 1 Seer dream a Night, etc. I said so it was unbalanced before the game even started, but your dry runs more or less convinced me that it would be okay. Still, I think that the Good Team needs... I don't know what exactly, but something to counterbalance the Evil Team.

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Plus, has there ever even been a -10 player game on the 'Downs?

Actually, I've thought about it. You might see something about that in the Scenerios thread.

[Boromir88]

I can't even keep up with all the posts in a regulard 14-15 player game. Morm, if you had trouble keeping up (and I gave up by the end of Day 2) you should nominate a villager who would be so kind to give a summary at the end, or near the end of the day.

1. Let the GW and gifteds PM at Night.

That sounds reasonable.

4. The Evil Team still has a huge advantage.

I'm beginning to think it was the bumped up Hunter role that evened things out a bit. Because the hunter role was like another seer, and in our haste it seemed to be like we called "Foul" this is too strong. When in fact it could have evened things out for the Good side a little more.

Beside this let's also consider the play of the players as well. I felt like Roa played extremely well...and Gurthang, I don't think your gifteds played top notch (no offense to Nilp and them), but with the time zone issues it just didn't seem like you had a plan when going into the Day. And they didn't utilize their talents to their full ability. Perhaps this could be because of the inability to PM at night.

[JennyHallu]

I seem to be alone in not liking the new Hunter.

In my opinion a Seer should be a Seer and a Hunter should be a Hunter, and never the twain should meet. I am not averse to altering the Hunter rules, but the Hunter should not become just another Seer. Better that the GW be able to Gift multiple Seers than that any Gifted he makes is more or less a Seer, no matter the Gift.

Plus I was horrendously confused and still am as to what exactly the Hunter did/could do/etc. And an automatic wolf kill if attacked in the Night means there is no difference between a clever and foolish Hunter.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Beside this let's also consider the play of the players as well. I felt like Roa played extremely well...and Gurthang, I don't think your gifteds played top notch (no offense to Nilp and them), but with the time zone issues it just didn't seem like you had a plan when going into the Day. And they didn't utilize their talents to their full ability. Perhaps this could be because of the inability to PM at night.

Exactly. During the Day, not only did I have to worry about trying to keep up with the thread and post my own thoughts, but I had to try to get messages through to my gifteds. The result was not being able to really talk about much other than who I would prefer that they dream/hunt. We had a 'plan' going into the Night, but that didn't really help us a whole lot, as the evening kill changed things and I wasn't able to adjust accordingly.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm beginning to think it was the bumped up Hunter role that evened things out a bit. Because the hunter role was like another seer, and in our haste it seemed to be like we called "Foul" this is too strong. When in fact it could have evened things out for the Good side a little more.

I've thought much the same thing. I thought the Evil side had a huge advantage, but I did not know about the heightened Hunter power.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

[Hunter's Powers
Any moderator who wished to run a dueling wizards game is free to abide by this. I won't. I don't like a weak hunter. That's why I made the choice I did. If there's some way to find a middle ground between the weak hunter I don't like, and the strong hunter I used in the last game, I'm interested.

We thought about the Hunter's role today with Lommy as we were figuring out our WWJ-game, and decided to try this kind of version of it.

The logical hunter works as follows:
- she can change her pick whenever she wants to
- if she has picked a wolf and is attacked at night she will take her pick with her
- if she has picked someone who has voted her she will take her pick with her when lynched
- so the logical hunter does not take innocents/gifteds with her when killed by the wolves nor take someone who hasn't voted her with her when lynched

The third point should make playing the Hunter - and the whole role - more interesting, if not openly stronger. As the hunter sees she is to be lynched, she will probably have time enough to change her target. That way she can either try to save innocent villagers voting for her or target her suspicion that has "bandwaggoned" her. At least this makes it more nerve-wrecking for the hunter...

In a game, where hunter and ranger are allowed to PM together, that kind of rule might make the Hunter a formidable player.