Tol-in-Gaurhoth XXI: Dueling Wizards Werewolf

[Oddwen]

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This thread's been viewed more than most RPGs.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Man, did LMP miss out on some serious commercial gain.

[JennyHallu]

But what were the hearts for?

[Gurthang]

Okay, I see I need to do a little clearing up...


ATTENTION: MONDO-SUPER-MEGA-UBER IMPORTANT (er...) THING IN THIS POST. YOU DO NOT WANT TO MISS IT!


Okay, first off, LMP, all those little Good Team Fatal errors, those were not my fault. (And don't get me started on my Quirks in the Rules Fatal to the Good Team list. )I mean, that first Night the Seer didn't dream... well, umh... okay, maybe that one was me. But the second time, oh, that one... okay, so maybe that was me again.

Now, as far as the naming innocents, it was Nilp who came out. But he had no point not to. The Evil team obviously knew that he was the unSeer already, so he had no one worth hiding from. I did cringe when he named Firefoot as his innocent.

And that whole family thing... well, I still hold to the fact that my family-gifteds out survived my non-family-gifteds by a ratio of:... oh, that'd be INFINITY, wouldn't it. Something like 9 Days/0 Days. Ironic somehow. True, it was obvious at the end, but they still out survived the others by far.

Okay, sorry, so that wasn't all that important.


HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART!


I've heard a lot of people comment on the brilliant strategy that Roa used when she turned Valier into a wolf. All credit to her, but that was actually her undoing.

The Day that Valier was lynched, the whole time I was thinking, if Valier is a wolf, then Roa is very likely the Evil Wizard. This was partially because she changed her stance over that Night. The Day Valier came out and said Roa was the Evil Wizard, Roa's response was: "She's just a misguided innocent." The next Day she was all for lynching her.

So Valier is lynched Day 5. At that moment I was so sure that Roa was the Evil Wizard. But here's what killed it, and in my mind was the single biggest rule related factor in our loss(sorry LMP, had to get just one): the Good Team could not PM at Night!

This meant I could not dream of her Night 6. So I took her off the list:

1. So we would not waste a lynch. (And look, we got a wolf!)
2. To throw her off.

Then I waited all Day 6, and all through Night 7 before I got my dream result. Had I been allowed to PM my Seer, I would have known for sure Night 6, and she would have been dead a Day earlier.

Oh, and I want to know this too LMP, what was up with Night 4? Good Team doing too Good?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I can very well see spawn's reasoning here, but... Am I the only one who finds this amusing?

That was the night that I had a completely different narration all set up with a fascinating bedroom scene involving Nilpaurion, Spawn, and two werewolves (now now, get your mind out of the gutter.... ) I did get to use it for Spawn's death later, but without Nilp. Ah well.

Originally Posted by Diamond

Say, does this count as a Lovers victory?

Yes, I noticed that too. Both lovers, Kitanna and Eomer survived to the end, but as co-werewolves. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim[/quote

A tragic lovers' victory too, as at least one of us is now dead. Where is this story going, LMP?

I wanted to have the Shadow offer a werewolf the evil wizard role, as a kind of ironic evil twist. So I wrote in the end-battle. It does suggest that this particular tragedy happened elsewhere in the early third age. It gives me an opening for Dueling Wizards 2, of course! Someday... unless someone else wants to mod it. I think it would be fun to actually play it....

Originally Posted by JennyHallu[/quote

But what were the hearts for?

I didn't work them into the narration as well as I had wanted to, I must confess. The Shadow uses them as a source of power to create the new evil wizard. I could have gotten graphic, but chose not to.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Oh, and I want to know this too LMP, what was up with Night 4? Good Team doing too Good?

The game was not going the way it was supposed to. And no, that does not mean that the Good Team was going too Good. The fact is, Roa complained that it was unfair. I judged that she was right. What you need to understand, though, is that she only complained about the Hunter rule being vague, and was asking for some kind of redress, such as the Hunter rule being weakened. As you all know by now, I don't like a weak hunter. So I refused to weaken the hunter, but offered an extra curse for the Night. After further thought, I realized that Night One hadn't gone right either, and on my own initiative awarded Roa a third curse for that Night, to make up for the uncursing of Loki, which should not have occurred. Roa even PM'd me to say that in the interest of fair play she was willing to not curse at all the following night. I chose not to go with that option. So all blame for any of that falls upon me, and me alone; it was my decision. And I do stand by it. There were problems with this game, which I figured would be the case, and having played through it, I see what they were, and the next time Dueling Wizards is played, those problems won't recur. All in all, though, I'm really pleased that it went as smoothly as it did.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

....the Good Team could not PM at Night!

Would you support both good and evil teams being allowed to PM all the time? That's the only redress I can see to your complaint.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

There were problems with this game, which I figured would be the case, and having played through it, I see what they were, and the next time Dueling Wizards is played, those problems won't recur. All in all, though, I'm really pleased that it went as smoothly as it did.

True, so very true. First times are always somewhat like test runs. I guess somewhat similar to Day 1s.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Would you support both good and evil teams being allowed to PM all the time? That's the only redress I can see to your complaint.

I think that would solve a lot of the problems I was having. Truthfully, the ability to PM at Night is desirable enough that I would be perfectly willing to let the Evil Team talk during the Day. Well, I probably won't have to worry about it, as becoming the Good Wizard again is so close to impossible that it makes no difference. But yeah, I want to make sure that the next Dueling Wizards game is a bit closer.

[Roa_Aoife]

Okay, I'm back! Since I'm sure you're dying to see my strategy, here it is:

Who I picked, When and Why:

Night one
Loki- The much debate Loki was chosen for a few reasons. Pre-game he showed far greater compentancy than most new players who join up. I figurede he'd be a strong player who wouldn't be suspected early on because no-one would believe him to be a good EW choice. (I was right, wasn't I?) Also, I believed that his untested status would make him less likely to be picked by the GW at any point. (There I was really wrong.)

And let me just say that I was amazed no one believed him. That was poor judgement on your parts (yes, Diamond, you too) and showed a distinct lack of thoughtfulness from all of you. Except Nogrod, who did what he was supposed to do. And I was happy to take advantage of it all.

Nogrod- Partly personal, partly practical. I was actually hoping to keep him around as a wolf a lot longer. As he's never been evil before, no one would know what behavior to look for to show him as evil. After his Day One attack on Loki, however, I decided to have some fun and enjoy sweet, sweet revenge for our first game together.

Naria- Naria is a werewolf ninja. Seriously. How many people suspected her up to her death? None. None whatsoever. I'm sure some of you were surprised to find out she was playing. Not because she never posts- oh no- but because of how she posts. You never know she's there until she's killing you. I have to say I was quite sore about losing her to a change in the rules.

Night two
Alcarillo- what can I say? I wanted someone who would survive just long enough to to keep my werewolf population up, but could still be used later either by me or another wolf. (No offense, Alc.)

Night three
Morm- Morm was doing so well, and was just so on top of things, I had to have him on my team. And I was glad that he was. He offered helpful suggestions and player analysis to find gifteds and the GW- he was the one who suggested the attack on Gurthang. He was the most informed of any of my wolves. I was worried that he might be scried by Gurthang, and so I had informed Boromir that if morm was turned back into an ordo he was to be killed. I was that worried about him as an enemy.

Night four
Eomer- After everything that went on with morm's goose chase, I figured no one would believe him to be turned after that point, and up till that point no one believed him guilty. I also knew that he could manipulate the crowd in the event that something happened to morm. Yes, Eomer was my back up morm.

Valier- I couldn't resist. I was worried that she might be the seer, but decided to risk it- best case I had a new wolf, worst case I got rid of the seer. If Valier had been turned into an ordo, I was going to have her killed. Then only the GW coming out and revealing Valier as seer would have tipped any one off. (And yeah, I think I could have talked my way out of it. )

Nilp- Because he possesses the same ninja-ness as Naria, though with perhaps a bit more noticeable. Having only played two games with him, I don't know if this is true to pattern or not- but it seems that if he survives Day One, he lasts for quite a while. Over all, he seemed to be a good choice to have on my team. Not once did I suspect him as seer. (Just like in that game with Naria!)

Night five
Jenny- Jenny makes such a good wolf. I knew that her skills and lack of suspicion so far would be a good asset to my side. I had looked at her earlier, but decided against it (just in case she was dreamed of...).

Night six
Kitanna- she had been on the list of doom, and so I knew she wasn't gifted, but she had garnered no votes and little suspicion, and so I knew she was likely safe for the rest of the game.

Who I killed and Why

Night two
SPM was Alcarillo's suggestion. I went with it for a few reasons. Saucie good is too much of a danger to deal with. Saucie bad is a likely dream, or worse- scry. And I figured Alca could talk his way out of it long enough for my purposes.

Night three
I saw the suggestion to the GW, and I thought that the GW might just try it. I also thought that he would likely pick an innocent as well. Plans fail sometimes.

Night four
Gurthang and Cailin were both attacked because they were likely seer choices.

Night five
Nilp and Firefoot- it was voted on by the wolves, so you'll have to ask them.

Night six
Lommy and Caran were again killed as likely gifted choices. I noted that Lommy had been under suspicion but hadn't ended up on Gurthang's list of doom, and Caran was just clean the whole game. I don't recall her ever being looked at.

Other moves

First, just to get this out of the way- My objection to Gurthang's plan was genuine, and had nothing to do with being the EW. I do not like having other people think for me. I despise being told what I can and cannot do when I know that the person telling me what to do is as lost as I am. (Even though I wasn't really lost, but that's beside the point.) I absolutely cannot stand being controlled in any fashion. My vote for Valier really was made in a huff.

Second, I'd like to point out, especially to Gurthang, that I didn't actually change opinion (publically) of Valier. Never once did I state her to be a likely wolf. I only said that I found her the most suspicious in the group provided. So your "catch" was imagined.

Third, I never intended to survive. I was constantly looking to set up the best situation for my wolves, and then take out the GW to keep gifteds from popping up. So, the whole game I was trying to survive just long enough to die. I found out from LMP that the wizards would be removed shortly after a challenged was issued (because I made it a point to ask) so I challenged right after being found out to prevent another list from showing up. I knew that with out it, the village would be completely lost. If you look at the voting record that day, you'll see I was right.



And now, Gurthang, you really did have a difficult hand, as is always true of the good team in these games. Despite that, you did fantastically, and I found you to be a worthy adversary.

My thanks to Boromir for being our mod- he was very obliging, and I was very demanding.

Kuruharan, I didn't work with you, but I hear tell you did a good job.

Finally, congratualtions to LMP for such an amazing game. A new concept is always going to have rough patches, but you managed it really well. Your family concept also made it fun, and added some intriguing elements to the game. Your narrations were beautiful, as well. I give you a standing ovation.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Roa

Night five
Nilp and Firefoot- it was voted on by the wolves, so you'll have to ask them.

I was the only wolf, I believe, that fought for at least one of them to live. I wanted Nilp killed but Firefoot to remain living. The reason behind this would be to cause utter confusion in the village and most likley the lynching of an innocent Firefoot. If she wasn't killed he village would be left wondering if she was converted by the EW who wanted to use her 'known' innocent status as a shield. There was no way Gurthang was choosing her as a seer because we most likely would be killing her. I disagreed with this kill as I found it unoriginal and a bit boring but in the end it served our purposes.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Lmp, thank you for a fantastic game. It was nice to try something completely new, and I think all worked very well - at least I had lots of fun.

Kuru, thanks for great sub-modding and putting up with my inbox issues.

And of course, congrats, Evil Team, on the victory!

I think the only problem the Good Team had was... timezones. I don't know about Kath and Nilp, but at least I had troubles discussing with Gurthang due to time differences. In that sense it would have helped if the Good Team could have PMed during Night, too.

Originally Posted by lmp

That was the night that I had a completely different narration all set up with a fascinating bedroom scene involving Nilpaurion, Spawn, and two werewolves (now now, get your mind out of the gutter.... ) I did get to use it for Spawn's death later, but without Nilp. Ah well.

I'm sure that would have been... interesting.

I liked the more powerful Hunter role. Now I didn't have to think what if someone isn't a Wolf and we'll lose a valuable innocent, but I was free to choose a villager whom I suspected regardless of their "reputation".

I was impressed by many innocents' accurate analysing in this game. They can't obviously trust anyone, and they know nothing for sure, but all the confusion and mistrust also brought up best strategical analyses I've seen in WWs. Also, everything was less chaotic than I had thought, but that's probably just a good thing.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Second, I'd like to point out, especially to Gurthang, that I didn't actually change opinion (publically) of Valier. Never once did I state her to be a likely wolf. I only said that I found her the most suspicious in the group provided. So your "catch" was imagined.

Whether I imagined it or not, I felt like I saw a change, and it's part of the reason I was so sure you were the EW.

I've got to tell you, though, your wolf choices were brilliant. We were lucky to catch some of them, or maybe not lucky, as you sacrificed them, but the ones we didn't catch... well, we never would have. So you did an amazing job in that aspect. Oh, and truthfully, you openly disagreeing with me almost made me mad enough to tell everyone to lynch you. But, it made me extremely indecisive about you as the EW. I thought it might be a bluff you would pull off, but also knew it could be a real qualm with the plan. Funny that is was partially right with both thoughts. Oh, and another stroke of brilliance was your quick coming out. That 'urgent business' was me trying to get a message to my gifteds telling them everything. Needless to say, they never got it. *coughnoNightPMcough*

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Needless to say, they never got it. *coughnoNightPMcough*

Needless to say, it turned out to be quite academic.
*coughAllintheFamilyGiftedscough*

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

And let me just say that I was amazed no one believed him. That was poor judgement on your parts (yes, Diamond, you too) and showed a distinct lack of thoughtfulness from all of you.

I did believe him.

I voted to lynch him because I didn't want to have to spend the entire game listening to him talk about how great he is and how stupid the rest of us are. Thoughtless? Maybe. Gratifying? Definitely. Would I do it again? After his last post, without a doubt.

Roa, we obviously have diametrically opposed views on Werewolf. I think we should be able to have fun, and play the game without fear of constant condemnation (because, you know, it's just a game). So, I believe we may deal with insufferable louts who make playing unfun in our own ways, and if that makes me a terrible person and a bad player, so be it.... Feel free to lynch me on principle from now on. I'll understand. Just don't tell me how to play the game. (I cannot stress this enough.) I cite Cailín's excellent post on why the personality aspect is a viable part of the game and not to be taken lightly.

Still, congratulations on your win. The last wolves standing were marvelous baddies, adept in playing the personalities of their fellow players, so I'm glad for you that you made better picks than Loki afterwards.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Diamond18

Still, congratulations on your win. The last wolves standing were marvelous baddies, adept in playing the personalities of their fellow players, so I'm glad for you that you made better picks than Loki afterwards.

Truthfully, I agree with Roa. I don't think Loki was a bad pick. (obviously)

I was going to choose him for a few reasons. (Funny how I, and everyone, are assuming he's a guy... mostly due to his attitude. He's never actually made the distinction.)

1. He's a newbie, and likely to survive.

Face it. Most of us have soft spots for new guys. We want them to get a good feel for the game, and so don't usually lynch them for the first few days. I think if Loki hadn't made such a big deal about being the 'chosen one' then he would have survived for about half the game.

2. I believe in giving people a chance to prove themselves.

Okay, like everybody, I want my chance to do something amazing. I got it in my first game as the first ever Black Beorning. I thought Loki deserved a shot at proving what he could do with a gift.

3. He seems intelligent to me.

Despite his in-your-face nature, from what I've seen he's a bright guy. I think he could have done a lot for either side. Hence him being wanted on both sides.


The whole spawn hunting Nilp after he was revealed thing. That was me. I didn't want to waste a scry on him because I thought he'd be killed, but at the same time I needed to make sure he wasn't a wolf. So, if he would have been turned, he would have been dead anyway, because spawn would have killed him. As it was, Roa took care of him.