Eldest?

[ninja91]

I suppose that Treebeard is older than Bombadil. I mean, obviously Treebeard is said to have been around for eons. And Bombadil? It is not known, nor is it documented. Therefore, I would say that Treebeard has a couple more years under his belt.

[davem]

Originally Posted by ninja91

I suppose that Treebeard is older than Bombadil. I mean, obviously Treebeard is said to have been around for eons. And Bombadil? It is not known, nor is it documented. Therefore, I would say that Treebeard has a couple more years under his belt.

Well, Tom does tell the Hobbits 'Eldest, that's what I am.' But in an early draft Goldberry responds 'He's not the eldest - he's a very naughty boy!' - however Tolkien removed this for the published version, along with the section where Merry & Pippin at Isengard have a long discussion on 'What have the Elves ever done for us?'

Of course, Tom is clearly a bit of a looney, so maybe you have to take that with a pinch of salt

[Farael]

After reading Bombi's quote (or well, Tolkien's quote on Bombi's post) I was wondering... Gandalf says that Fangorn (Treebeard) is the oldest living thing walking under the sun... is it possible that Tom Bombadill walked a different "plane" than the rest? I mean, if he was some sort of Ainur he might very well be beyond the laws of physics, space and time. So perhaps what Gandalf meant that, of the "normal" living things, Fangorn was the oldest... after all, if Gandalf was the Maiar Olorin, wouldn't Olorin be older than anything in Arda?

Farael, thank you for saying eloquently what I tried to at the very end of my post. I agree with what you said. I personally like Tom, esp. for his detachement from the world. Which I beleive is why he is excused when Treebeard is described as eldest. For certainly if the Vala and such powers were to be included then Manwe (I am supposing here I do not know the exact order of creation) would take the cake.

And yet here I am contradicting myself. Tom is not exactly like the Vala. He is certainly connected to Middle-earth (Id Est: the theory of Tom as the physical manifestation of nature). So some measurements of time must apply to him.

As now my mind has settled that Mithrandir meant Treebeard is Eldest of the four primary free creatures. Expect my mind to change soon. Curse indesicion.

[Texadan]

Bombadil also tells the hobbits...

Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn...When the elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

If that's true, it seems Tom was there when only the Valar lived in the world. Could he have been one of them? His power and joy is in singing and it was through singing the song of Ilúvatar that the Ainur, which included the Valar, made the world.

And, to be a bit facetious, Gandalf did say that Treebeard was the oldest thing that walked the earth. Bombadil never walked. He hopped; he jumped; he danced.

[Farael]

I always thought Bombadil to be not unlike Melian, an Ainur who fell in love with Middle Earth and did not go to Valinor. That would explain more than a couple of things

*Why he did not disapear when he put the ring on (I'm assuming that Sauron didn't disapear either, it might be that if you were strong enough you'd be able to use the ring without disapearing)
*This whole Treebeard-Bombadil being the eldest (Ainur obviously don't count, or else as I said before, Olorin (aka Gandalf) would be older than Treebeard)
*His singing (As mentioned before, Arda was created by the song of the Ainur (and Eru) and it seems that Tom works magic by singing)

I can't recall right now if Gandalf says something about the nature of Tom Bombadil, but I think he could be a Maiar... I'd say even a Valar but I think they're all accounted for... and yet, he could be a Valar incarnated in a human (or humanoid) body like Gandalf. I don't know if it says anywhere that all the Valar were in Valinor during the War of the Ring.

In any case, I think that belongs to another thread.... but the point is, I think what Gandalf meant is that Fangorn was the oldest non-Ainur living thing.... as the Ainur are not alive in the same sense the elves, men or hobbits are.

[A_Brandybuck]

The quote, that Treebeard is the Eldest being came from Gandalf not from Tolkien himself. And Gandalf could err or could simplify things in his words. Maybe he just didn't want to explain the Bombadil-Thing or he didn't think about him at this special moment.