Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
05-28-2006, 12:21 PM | #1 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Eldest?
Who is the eldest? Bombadil or Treebeard? This question just occured to me a few hours ago as I was rereading The Two Towers. This is from chapter 5 The White Rider.
Quote:
|
|
05-28-2006, 03:17 PM | #2 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chozo Ruins.
Posts: 421
|
I suppose that Treebeard is older than Bombadil. I mean, obviously Treebeard is said to have been around for eons. And Bombadil? It is not known, nor is it documented. Therefore, I would say that Treebeard has a couple more years under his belt.
__________________
Quote:
|
|
05-28-2006, 04:01 PM | #3 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Quote:
Of course, Tom is clearly a bit of a looney, so maybe you have to take that with a pinch of salt
__________________
“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 05-28-2006 at 04:36 PM. |
|
05-28-2006, 04:28 PM | #4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,538
|
After reading Bombi's quote (or well, Tolkien's quote on Bombi's post) I was wondering... Gandalf says that Fangorn (Treebeard) is the oldest living thing walking under the sun... is it possible that Tom Bombadill walked a different "plane" than the rest? I mean, if he was some sort of Ainur he might very well be beyond the laws of physics, space and time. So perhaps what Gandalf meant that, of the "normal" living things, Fangorn was the oldest... after all, if Gandalf was the Maiar Olorin, wouldn't Olorin be older than anything in Arda?
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. |
05-28-2006, 04:48 PM | #5 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Farael, thank you for saying eloquently what I tried to at the very end of my post. I agree with what you said. I personally like Tom, esp. for his detachement from the world. Which I beleive is why he is excused when Treebeard is described as eldest. For certainly if the Vala and such powers were to be included then Manwe (I am supposing here I do not know the exact order of creation) would take the cake.
And yet here I am contradicting myself. Tom is not exactly like the Vala. He is certainly connected to Middle-earth (Id Est: the theory of Tom as the physical manifestation of nature). So some measurements of time must apply to him. As now my mind has settled that Mithrandir meant Treebeard is Eldest of the four primary free creatures. Expect my mind to change soon. Curse indesicion. |
05-28-2006, 10:51 PM | #6 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: May 2006
Location: East Texas
Posts: 38
|
Bombadil also tells the hobbits...
Quote:
And, to be a bit facetious, Gandalf did say that Treebeard was the oldest thing that walked the earth. Bombadil never walked. He hopped; he jumped; he danced. |
|
05-28-2006, 11:18 PM | #7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,538
|
I always thought Bombadil to be not unlike Melian, an Ainur who fell in love with Middle Earth and did not go to Valinor. That would explain more than a couple of things
*Why he did not disapear when he put the ring on (I'm assuming that Sauron didn't disapear either, it might be that if you were strong enough you'd be able to use the ring without disapearing) *This whole Treebeard-Bombadil being the eldest (Ainur obviously don't count, or else as I said before, Olorin (aka Gandalf) would be older than Treebeard) *His singing (As mentioned before, Arda was created by the song of the Ainur (and Eru) and it seems that Tom works magic by singing) I can't recall right now if Gandalf says something about the nature of Tom Bombadil, but I think he could be a Maiar... I'd say even a Valar but I think they're all accounted for... and yet, he could be a Valar incarnated in a human (or humanoid) body like Gandalf. I don't know if it says anywhere that all the Valar were in Valinor during the War of the Ring. In any case, I think that belongs to another thread.... but the point is, I think what Gandalf meant is that Fangorn was the oldest non-Ainur living thing.... as the Ainur are not alive in the same sense the elves, men or hobbits are.
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. |
05-29-2006, 12:01 AM | #8 |
Haunting Spirit
|
The quote, that Treebeard is the Eldest being came from Gandalf not from Tolkien himself. And Gandalf could err or could simplify things in his words. Maybe he just didn't want to explain the Bombadil-Thing or he didn't think about him at this special moment.
__________________
„I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." |
05-29-2006, 04:56 AM | #9 |
Wight
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic
Posts: 196
|
I think we can discount tom being a valar - is he were one, surely he would be able to resist the power of sauron and the ring, and yet we are told by Gandalf (or elrond, I can't remember which) that it would not be safe in his keeping.
Concerning the question of the thread, I'd say tom is definitely eldest. His name means 'oldest and fatherless'. We are given very little detail about him, the bulk of it relating to how old he is. His age is his most prominent trait. Treebeard is old, but he is more characterised, wheras tom is a very sprightly reincarnation of age. Treebeard may be called the oldest living thing that walks the earth, but Tom is such an enigma that he can't really be classified for certain as a living thing: we don't know what he is. Tom is the eldest. Full stop. That is made very very clear. I think the comment about treebeard being the eldest leaves tom out as a given; of course he is oldest because he existed before anything. bombariffic
__________________
The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency. |
05-29-2006, 10:27 AM | #10 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 257
|
What do you mean by eldest, Bombi?
__________________
Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia |
05-29-2006, 10:33 AM | #11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,538
|
Quote:
Yet this thread is not about who Tom Bombadill is, but rather who is the eldest. I think that It's clear that of all the "normal" living things Treebeard is the eldest... while Tom is the eldest of a special kind of beings.
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. |
|
05-29-2006, 12:29 PM | #12 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
According to the Silmarillion, the ents awoke about the same time with the elves:
Quote:
|
|
05-30-2006, 12:12 AM | #13 |
Haunting Spirit
|
The Eldest Being could be also Círdan, if he has awoken at Cúvienen. But in this case, we could only speculate, how old he is.
In my meaning, there is no quote, which deals with the awakening/birth of Círdan.
__________________
„I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." |
05-30-2006, 04:33 AM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
|
In HoME Vol12 The Peoples of Middle-Earth under Last Writings is a section about Cirdan. It states thus;
Cirdan was a Telerin Elf, one of the highest of those who were not transported to Valinor but became known as the Sindar, the Grey-elves, he was akin to Olwe, one of the two kings of the Teleri, and lord of those who departed over the Great Sea. He was thus also akin to Elwe, Olwe's elder brother, acknowledged as high-king of all Teleri in Beleriand. It also states that Cirdan was the leader of those who sought longest for the lost Elwe. Although Cirdan is very old, I do not think he is as old as Tom, for he came First and Alone to Middle-earth. The Istari are older, yet Gandalf cannot say so, for that would spoil the illusion of them being just old men (this may have already been sussed, as they had been drawing their pensions for some time). My vote goes with Tom as Eldest, purely because it is he who calls himself so, and who else can say they saw the first raindrop or the first acorn; and who can say he was there before The Dark Lord came.
__________________
[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
05-30-2006, 11:00 AM | #15 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
|
|
05-30-2006, 12:31 PM | #16 | |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
|
Quote:
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
|
|
05-30-2006, 12:37 PM | #17 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chozo Ruins.
Posts: 421
|
But Bombadil was not one of the Valar or the Maiar, or was he?
And they were living things. They were created, and they themselves created. How, in every possible sense, could they not be living?
__________________
Quote:
|
|
05-30-2006, 03:19 PM | #18 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
05-30-2006, 05:09 PM | #19 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
|
Quote:
Here's a question. Were the bodies of the Valar, when they inhabited them, biologically alive? Obviously the Istari were... |
|
05-31-2006, 05:29 AM | #20 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Chozo Ruins.
Posts: 421
|
In my opinion, yes, because they could think and have emotions. They moved and functioned, just like living things (besides plants) do.
__________________
Quote:
|
|
05-31-2006, 06:43 AM | #21 |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
Is there perhaps a distinction to be made here between those beings who are "born" in Arda and those who reside or come from without?
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
05-31-2006, 07:51 AM | #22 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
|
Maybe this is just one of those contradictions we will have to live with, for Tolkien has Bombadil calling himself Eldest, yet in a letter to Milton Waldman in 1951 he again says that the Ents are the oldest rational creatures. Now is there a distinction between creatures and peoples? Creature to me means something created/living being. So where does that leave Bombadil, has he not been created, or is he part of something else, like the Flame imperishable or Eru. Iluvatar placed the Flame Imperishable in the heart of Ea at the creation of the world, what else was there from the beginning, who came first and alone?
__________________
[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
05-31-2006, 10:26 AM | #23 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment.
Posts: 1,538
|
Quote:
That's why we have the distinction about the Istari, who were trully inhabiting human(oid) bodies and thus felt the same needs and feelings we do.
__________________
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning. |
|
05-31-2006, 11:58 PM | #24 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
I think Farael has a point; in the Annals of Aman, it is stated that:
Quote:
|
|
06-01-2006, 02:55 AM | #25 |
Haunting Spirit
|
It may be another case, because Melkor lost much power or rather gave it away. His body was biological at all thinking on the wounds, which he received from Fingolfin.
__________________
„I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." |
06-01-2006, 07:29 AM | #26 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
|
Quote:
I think the argument ran something along the lines of, "If the bodies the Valar inhabited were capable of engaging in humanoid activity, then they had to have been biologically alive throughout. Even the Valar could engage in these activities without becoming permanently tied to their bodies." At least, I think that was how the argument ran. |
|
06-10-2006, 01:14 PM | #27 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
For the 'Tom is Tolkien' crew, a correspondent in the latest Amon Hen points out that two of his names, Forn & Orald are an anagram of 'For Ronald'.
For what's its worth.... |
06-10-2006, 06:01 PM | #28 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
|
Well spotted Davem, got my Amon Hen this morning.
__________________
[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
06-10-2006, 09:09 PM | #29 | |
Laconic Loreman
|
Here's just some more food for thought. This appears in Hammond and Skull's- Lord of the Ring's Companion and is one of Tolkien's letter dated 1968:
Quote:
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
|
06-11-2006, 09:51 AM | #30 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Esoterics
Farael, I am new to this forum (I joined 5 minutes ago), and I was EXTREMELY relieved to read your post.
About myself - I am into meditation and esoterics... internal martial arts etc... Basically when I was young, I read LOTR and Silmarillion constantly. I'm not a big Hobbit fan, neither do I like the LOTR movies. Maybe that's just me... Anyway, I read the Lord of The Rings constantly. More than 20 times. When I got my hands on Silmarillion, it changed things... I thought oh my God... this is the stuff... I just couldn't believe it. I must have read it even more times than LOTR, and it gave me a greater understanding and appreciation of LOTR too. I've been doing martial arts for a long time, but in the past year have begun a heavy meditative journey and study into the esoteric, and once again I am fortunate enough to be able to see deeper and deeper into Tolkein's work... and appreciate his Mastery more and more. I was hoping to find similar minded people here that can see the esoteric component of LOTR and Silmarillion, and Farael you've just confirmed to me that there are others out there! Anyway, I hope to get to know all of you! This is a great forum. |
06-12-2006, 08:59 PM | #31 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
In TTT Treebeard states that there are trees older than he, and so if Bombadil were present before trees...plus, Tom's obviously older as he dresses so flamboyantly and doesn't care.
Doesn't he also say that as he was First? On the other hand the man does ramble so, and so is suspect. Surely there will be a poll, but between the two I would prefer to hang out with Treebeard. He's more grounded and more active and easier to relate to.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
07-29-2006, 02:22 PM | #32 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
|
My sister happened to ask me today which of them was older.
"I think Tom Bombadil. Ents only awoke around the same time as Elves", I replied. She raised a good point saying: "That'd make good sense since Tom says: 'Tom was here before the trees'." So, what do you 'downers think? There surely were no ents before there were any trees, so unless Tom is lying he's older than Treebeard in my logic.
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
|
08-05-2006, 06:58 AM | #33 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Quote:
|
|
08-05-2006, 04:09 PM | #34 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
If Tom Bombadil were referring to Melkor, than hands-down Bombadil is older than Treebeard. And even with Sauron, since Sauron arrived at generally the same time as Melkor. |
|
08-25-2006, 07:59 AM | #35 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
If we remember...
In Silmarillion... When Aule made the race of the dwarves... Eru came and was angry, and the Dwarves were to be kept sleeping until after the Children of Illuvatar were to awake... After Aule told Yavanna the story, she said "your children and my children will not get along" or something along those lines (her children were plants.. trees.. etc).. Aule said that even the Children of Illuvatar will have need of wood, food, etc... Yavanna, worried, went to speak to Manwe about it... Manwe asked Yavanna which of her creations were most dear to her, and she said Trees... so Illuvatar revealed the Shephards of the Trees... spirits that would enter the trees once the children of Illuvatar had awaken, to protect the trees... So Treebeard awoke at the time after the Children of Illuvatar awoke... Before that - entities already roamed the earth... entities which came from the outside - such as the Valar... and the Maiar... Tom is not Valar... so it makes sense that he must be Maiar - in which case he is older than Treebeard.. Another puzzeling thing is why Gandalf (Olorin) calls Treebeard "Eldest"... Olorin is of the Maiar... older than the Earth... and much older than Trees... and the shephards of trees - so why does he call Treebeard "Eldest"? |
08-26-2006, 09:07 AM | #36 | ||
Laconic Loreman
|
Quote:
Second, in one of my posts before: Quote:
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
||
08-31-2006, 08:38 PM | #37 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 16
|
Tom is a merry fellow, that i'm pretty sure
Actually Tolkien did mention that he deliberately leave Tom Bombadil as an enigma. a lingering mystery. in fact, that's what make LOTR so interesting. he deliberately leave several blank spots of which he let the imagination of readers waging freely and his books become a topic of endless discussion. A bit of topic: Did you know the "Fair Lady" that Tom mention when he took the treasures from the barrow? |
09-01-2006, 03:26 AM | #38 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Barad-Dur
Posts: 196
|
It's possible of course that Tom Bombadil and Treebeard are one and the same being , because there is no time in the LOTR or indeed in the entire recorded history of Middle-Earth or beyond when they are ever seen together .
I am the Mouth of Sauron . |
|
|