Dueling Wizards Werewolf Suggestion Thread

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

After taking the time to thoroughly understand Nogrod's idea, I have to say 'no' for Dueling Wizards, because the good team needs strength, not unintentional double crossing.

I see your point. If the hunter role must first of all serve the balance of power, which is not corrected otherwise, then the hunter most surely must take a wolf with her. I remember being myself also of the opinion that the baddies seem to have the upper hand in this game before it started. A powerful hunter might balance that (or at least correct it somewhat).

But then again, this kind of automatic wolf-slaying ability kind of takes the sport out of the role, as the hunter can't herself make the difference with her own gaming... The good side PM'ing would be much more efficient way to balance the game - and it would even make it more fun to play to those who are the gifteds, I suppose.

PS. - this probably should be somewhere else, but as Saucepan commented here, I would like to answer...

= Spm
The logical Hunter is, as the name suggests, logical. But I think that it makes the role less interesting. Half the fun of the role is in the risk of killing an innocent, at Night as well as during the Day.

Partly yes. But when we combine the lynchingvote-rule (being lynched, hunter will only take with her someone who has actually voted for her) to the ruling that she can change her pick at any time - practically 1 minute before the deadline - it makes that evening something to remember for the hunter! Think of your chances: pick up an innocent voter of yours and make things worse, play it safe and change your pick to someone who has not voted for you not to kill anyone, or become the hero and pick the wolf bandwaggoning on you from the lot and take the beast with you! Some heart-pumping thinking for the last hours...

[Ainaserkewen]

Holy crumbly muffins. I just wanted to take this posting oppertunity to say "Wow, it's amazing that Werewolves is still so popular."

It's been a while.

[littlemanpoet]

For First Night:

If the evil wizard and good wizard pick the same player, the player becomes a werewolf but is known to the good wizard.

What do you think?

I'm willing to go with SPM's take on the Hunter. With the Good Wizard being a virtual #1 seer and the seer being #2, the Hunter doesn't need to be yet another Seer, I suppose. But I still wish there was some way to bolster the role, even with SPM's sensible explanation in mind. *LMP shrugs*

[Valier]

I was thinking of trying my hand at Modding one of these, but I would definitely need some help, so if others are interested please pm me and we can discuss it.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

For First Night:

If the evil wizard and good wizard pick the same player, the player becomes a werewolf but is known to the good wizard.

Sounds like a pretty good plan. Be sort of like a Seer dream in that case.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I'm willing to go with SPM's take on the Hunter. With the Good Wizard being a virtual #1 seer and the seer being #2, the Hunter doesn't need to be yet another Seer, I suppose.

Actually, I think that's how it should be, with the Hunter basically like a Seer. The reason being is that it evens out the playing field a lot. The Evil Team at minimum has 2 chances at Night to find the GW(EW scry + at least 1 wolf kill). The Good Team, with a traditional Hunter, has at maximum 2 chances at Night to find the EW(GW scry + Seer dream, if there is a Seer). By making the Hunter basically like a Seer, it means the Good Team could have up to 3 chances each Night, just like the Evil Team would likely have 3 chances.

Think about this scenario. On Night 1 the Evil Wizard makes 3 wolves, the Good Wizard makes a Seer. Evil Team has four chances to find the GW, Good Team has 2 chances to find EW. On Night 2, the Evil Wizard makes 4 wolves (so 2 kills), the Good Wizard makes a Hunter. This would give both teams 3 chances that Night to find the opposing wizard. So you see it all works out very well, from the chances per Night look.

And if you doubt the value of chances each Night, then think about this: Roa found me on the Night she got 5 chances. And furthermore, at the moment I was found, the Evil Team had scried/killed 13 times and the Good Team had only scried/dreamed 6 times*. So Basically, she was searching the village about twice as fast as I was able to.


*This should have been 7, but actually should have been 6. Nilp should have dreamed Night 2 but didn't, so that should have been 7, but he should not have dreamed Night 4 and did, so it should be 6.

[littlemanpoet]

So what I'm beginning to conclude is Saucy's original suggestion, ratified by Gurthang, is that the Hunter needs to be stronger while the wizards live, then after the wizard battle the Hunter becomes the classic style hunter. I think I'm okay with that construction.

I'm also beginning to lean toward both Evil and Good Teams PMing ONLY at Night.

You know, I must confess that it totally escaped me that I had put in the rules that the Good Team could only PM in the Daytime; with Kuru handling all aspects, I just didn't think about it, and assumed (wrongly and stupidly) that the Good team were PMing at Night. It's something that deserves correction. I really wouldn't mind running another one of these Dueling Wizards games again some time, but you can bet I won't be writing quite the narratives.

[Roa_Aoife]

I'm both for and against the stronger hunter- I do think that the hunter role should be made stronger, but automatic wolf kills are in no way fair to the game. There's no sport in it, and it takes all challenge away from the role. Like giving the hunter a wolf if no kill is chosen- that's just rediculous. The seer doesn't automatically dream of a wolf if they don't pick someone, and the hunter shouldn't automatically kill a wolf if they don't pick someone. If that's allowed, then the hunter doesn't have to do anything except die, and that's far too close to cheating. Also, and I say this with Naria in mind, it is wholly unfair to the wolf who gets killed, especially if they've avoided suspicion up till that point.

So, sure, make the hunter stronger, but don't give automatic wolf killings. That's really unfair, and it takes out all the challenge in the role. While I'm sure the phantom would have been a great hunter (he was going to choose me, after all), he can take no credit for Naria's kill, because he didn't do anything at all. Doing nothing should never be rewarded in this game.

[Loki]

#1.
The Good side should be allowed to PM at any point during the game.
The Evil side shold only be allowed to PM at night.

===== This helps the Good side out, and they really ought to be able to PM at any time anyway. Game mechanics balance.

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#2.
When GW and EW scry same person they discover each others' identities.
++Optional: Person may or may not be killed.

BEWARE, this may upset game balance in favor of EW. This is up to mod's discretion, as it is not a major flaw, but it can influence the swing of a close game.

===== This is another game mechanic balance. It gives the Good side a fighting chance.

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#3.
Hunter is just a normal Hunter. Case closed.

===== Changing this factor destroys the actual role of a Hunter, de-valuing the player's actual gaming and making them naught but a pawn for the GW. Players should be able to influence the game. This detracts from the position, and makes it a strategic move on the GW's part, with nothing to be done from the Hunter.

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#4.
The Hunter ought to be able to change their decision at any time.

===== This shouldn't be such a problem-- every PM contains a timestamp. The mods can sort time out as they wish. If someone could not handle this simple task, then they ought not to be mods. Plain and simple.

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#5.
"And now for a new possibility to increase what I call the "Tolkien Theme" aspect: if the top vote getters are tied, no lynch for the Day. You can see the implications pretty quickly. What do you think?"

No. Bad idea.

===== If you implement this, this reduces the effectiveness of the voters/Ordos, allowing the wolves to make extra kills that night, etc. etc. This only gives the Evil side an extra advantage. Bad idea. If there's a tie, either multiple-lynch or take the first person to reach given #.

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It seems that, largely, the reason that you guys (LMP, Gurthang) do not like some these systems is because they put the Good side at a possible disadvantage. That's the point. The Evil side can fail naturally, through playing badly. The Good side can only fail through playing badly. Both sides depend largely on luck and how the game is played. Honestly, I've been saying that the Evil side has been at a huge advantage since before the game had started. Goodness knows, there's plenty of reasons why.

Bear in mind, however, that the Evil team is ALWAYS going to be at an advantage. Look at a normal WW game. The Good team could win-- with a little luck and skill. However, the Evil side is at the advantage. Let's face it, a rough tally of all of the WW game leaves the Evil side winning about 70% of the time. What makes this REALLY unbalanced is the incorporation of people picking their own wolves. This is pretty unfair, period. Just bear in mind that it's a game. There are going to be different variations, different styles, and different methods. Most of the flaws in design were instituted in trying to change things to make it more fair. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

[Loki]

IMPORTANT:

Just had a good idea. Game Moderator automatically kills off silent people. Wolves or not. If you don't participate, you don't play. Silent players are the worst problem in these sorts of games. A moderator should be able to kill a player because they haven't met an active post count.

Be strict. Be serious. If someone can't make enough posts per day, then they should have sat it out. It may not be their fault, but they ought to behave reasonably and accept that **** happens. This probably won't be implemented (everyone is so nice nowadays... so afraid to step on anyone's toes), but I figured it's worth a shot, and if I run any games, it will be implemented in them.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Loki

Bear in mind, however, that the Evil team is ALWAYS going to be at an advantage. Look at a normal WW game. The Good team could win-- with a little luck and skill. However, the Evil side is at the advantage. Let's face it, a rough tally of all of the WW game leaves the Evil side winning about 70% of the time. What makes this REALLY unbalanced is the incorporation of people picking their own wolves. This is pretty unfair, period. Just bear in mind that it's a game. There are going to be different variations, different styles, and different methods. Most of the flaws in design were instituted in trying to change things to make it more fair. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Loki makes a good point here- the WW games are all slightly unbalanced towards the evil side, and they always have been. It's the nature of the game, and it's what makes it fun to play as an ordo. The wolves know each other and can act as a team, whereas the good side cannot. That advantage has all but been eliminated in this game.

#1. I'm perfectly fine with the good side being able to PM all of the time. I've been in other games where that was the case, and it helped even things out a bit.

#2. I see no reason why this should not be the case. If it's night one, in a village of 30, that could be unfair, and certainly the person should live, though perhaps be uninformed. If we use Loki's earlier idea of the wizards sending a list to the sub mods, and the sub mods picking at random from the list, we can eliminate that problem. I would say that if both sub mods randomly picked the same person from their respective lists, then that player should go to the wizard who sent in the list first, and the other mod would pick someone else, with niether wizard ebing made aware of it. This should be for night one only, though, as the picking of certain players for certain roles is strategy and gives roles of the wizards some actual purpose other than just wolf/gifted making factories.

#3. I'd disagree that the hunter should be completely normal. A super hunter, such as what LMP has, is really unfair, but a slightly stronger hunter is okay. Make it completely normal after the death of the wizards though, since that's only fair.

#4. The only thing I see against this is the time it takes for the mod to write up a narration. If the mod is willing to deal with it, then I see no reason against it.

#5. Really, I fully agree with Loki on that one. There should always be a lynch at the end of the day, otherwise it's just an advantage for the evil team, since, beyond the hunter, there's no other way to kill the wolves, and even Superhunter couldn't handle them all.

I'm all for evening the game out. After all, it's hardly gratifying to win when everyone attribute's your victory to a slant in the rules rather than your own skill.

EDIT: Cross-posted, actually, this is implemented in most werewolf games. Mods set up a limit such as, no vote for two straight days, or no posts for a full day with out prior warning, or whatever else the mod decides to set the limit at. LMP didn't because I think he was trying to keep things from swaying too far into the Evil side's advantage.