Dueling Wizards Werewolf Suggestion Thread - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Diamond18 · 05-31-2006, 11:58 AM

My goodness, LMP, you are tireless.

But, I would think that someone else should get the chance to mod a DW before you do it again. Maybe you could co-mod this next time around? However, since I'm not volunteering to take on head role, this is merely a cautious suggestion to hold up a bit. Others are, I'm sure, eager to have their turn at the concept.

As to what to do with non-participants, I think those who read WWJVIII know my stance... Mod Fire from Heaven, charred remains smoking on the ground, and all that. You can hardly prevent non-participants from signing up (unless you do your recruitment by invitation only) so the only way to deal with it in game is to zap them.

Valier · 05-31-2006, 12:45 PM

Well since I myself have offered to be a mod for the next game, since others want someone else to do it, LMP could be my co-mod. But I'm afraid my narrations would be fairly weak compared to LMP's so I would rather have someone else write them and I would do the roles and rules stuff. Unless someone else wants to Mod then LMP and I could be the co-mods...

Roa_Aoife · 05-31-2006, 01:58 PM

I'd be happy to be the evil team sub-mod... *evil grin*

Loki · 05-31-2006, 02:19 PM

"Perhaps a compromise could be made, such as, lynch non-participants"

Bad idea. Then you're taking away from the village's choice of who to lynch. Also, you'd be taking it away from the villagers' chances of finding a wolf. Wolves are rarely non-participants.

Roa_Aoife · 05-31-2006, 02:25 PM

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant in conjuction with the daily lynch, not in place of it. Like Diamond's Mod-fire from heaven. SMITE BUTTONS!

Formendacil · 05-31-2006, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki

"Perhaps a compromise could be made, such as, lynch non-participants"

Bad idea. Then you're taking away from the village's choice of who to lynch. Also, you'd be taking it away from the villagers' chances of finding a wolf. Wolves are rarely non-participants.

Precisely as Roa said.

In all previous scenarios in which Mods have removed non-players from games, they have been killed together with those being lynched for the day. It does not supercede the villager's right to choose (to use a potentially loaded term).

Ultimately, there is NO way to ensure a completely noisy village. Even the Phantom's "by invitation only" game saw Lhunardawen killed arbitrarily (the same day I was lynched) due to real life circumstances that completely prevented her from being on a computer.

The impression that Quiet = Innocent is not always correct, though. Loki is correct in stating that wolves are NORMALLY not quiet, but Alcarillo in Valier's WWJ (J:VII) game proved that 100% wrong. He survived almost to the very end on being quite quiet. He also did it in my very first game, Holbytlass's (WW: XI). Alcarillo probably posted a maximum of twice a day, with maybe two paragraphs, either of those games. It wasn't a lack of time. It was a ploy.

Valier · 05-31-2006, 03:34 PM

I think perhaps Loki since you seem to have much to say about it why don't you mod your own game with all your own rules and stipulations and see how many people will play. That would give you the chance to do it anyway you want.

I would suggest playing in a few more games and obeying their Mods rules and then try it for yourself. Modding is not always easy especially in a large game with many rules.

Loki · 05-31-2006, 03:37 PM

"Originally Posted by Loki
"Perhaps a compromise could be made, such as, lynch non-participants"

Bad idea. Then you're taking away from the village's choice of who to lynch. Also, you'd be taking it away from the villagers' chances of finding a wolf. Wolves are rarely non-participants."

^
|

You didn't take it out of context, but I would like to point out for future posterity that I misunderstood what Roa had said. It's a bad idea because I had thought that she meant IN the villagers' vote, and that would be used to lynch quiet players instead of anything else.

Formendacil-- I'm aware. However, two posts per day is not outside of reasonable bounds. That's clever. Unfortunately, 5 posts in two weeks in utter nonsense. I'm looking at you, Eonwe. Naria played the quiet game. Alcarillo played it quietly. I get your point, but I do not change my opinion. There is a difference between five posts and eleven posts. Like 220% a difference.

Now quit bringing this topic up, I've said my peace, and you know my opnion. I'm not going to address it again.

Loki · 05-31-2006, 03:42 PM

Will do, Valier. We both know how many people will join, though. Look for the thread.

littlemanpoet · 05-31-2006, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diamond

I would think that someone else should get the chance to mod a DW before you do it again.

I appreciate the suggestion, Diamond, but must admit to a certain proprietary sense about this: I'd like to "get it right" before unleashing it to the world, so to speak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I'd be happy to be the evil team sub-mod...

Okay. You got it. And Valier will be good team sub-mod. If you've peeked at the admin thread, you'll see that I'm about 5th in line (if everybody's okay with my mod list), so it's some time off yet. Certainly after July. And Diamond, that's plenty long enough of a wait!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Think about this scenario. On Night 1 the Evil Wizard makes 3 wolves, the Good Wizard makes a Seer. Evil Team has four chances to find the GW, Good Team has 2 chances to find EW. On Night 2, the Evil Wizard makes 4 wolves (so 2 kills), the Good Wizard makes a Hunter. This would give both teams 3 chances that Night to find the opposing wizard. So you see it all works out very well, from the chances per Night look.

The italicized part of your quote is incorrect. The three werewolves get ONE kill choice, thus only ONE chance to find the GW. The EW's curse plus three werewolves' singe kill = only 2 chances at the GW per Night. Once the ETeam has 4 werewolves, it's 2 kills per Night and 1 EW curse = 3 chances at the GW. Meanwhile, the GW + the Seer = 2 chances to find a werewolf, and once done, if they have the Hunter, an automatic take-down SAME NIGHT.

I think you're limiting the GW's effectiveness too much by saying that his sole purpose is to find the EW while the villagers try to pick off werewolves. The GW scries one of 3 types of players: 1) the EW; 2) a werewolf; 3) an innocent. If he finds the EW, wizard battle as soon as he likes; IF he finds a werewolf, either uncurse or send the Hunter after him. Why would the GW NOT do this? If the scry finds a werewolf, you deal with the find instead of wishing you'd found the EW instead, or wishing you'd found an innocent to gift. I think it's a huge mistake to limit the potentialities of the Good Wizard, especially if the GW can PM all Night.

I still think that the Good team starts out with a disadvantage but can make up ground if it plays right. If the Good team had had Night PMs in this last game, I think at least 2 of the "critical errors" would have been avoided, and maybe 4 of them could have been.

Gurthang · 05-31-2006, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The italicized part of your quote is incorrect. The three werewolves get ONE kill choice, thus only ONE chance to find the GW. The EW's curse plus three werewolves' singe kill = only 2 chances at the GW per Night. Once the ETeam has 4 werewolves, it's 2 kills per Night and 1 EW curse = 3 chances at the GW. Meanwhile, the GW + the Seer = 2 chances to find a werewolf, and once done, if they have the Hunter, an automatic take-down SAME NIGHT.

Well, first, I can't see what you italicized. The quote tags automatically put everything in italics, so I can't see the difference.

But, as to what you do mean. I don't think it's incorrect. For the first night, and Night 1 only, the Evil Wizard has three scries. That plus a wolf kill means 4 chances to locate the Good Wizard for Night 1. After that, providing there are four or more wolves, it goes back down to 3 per Night.

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I think you're limiting the GW's effectiveness too much by saying that his sole purpose is to find the EW while the villagers try to pick off werewolves. The GW scries one of 3 types of players: 1) the EW; 2) a werewolf; 3) an innocent. If he finds the EW, wizard battle as soon as he likes; IF he finds a werewolf, either uncurse or send the Hunter after him. Why would the GW NOT do this?

Well, he would. Only a fool wouldn't. But think about this. The Good Wizard himself does not have to worry about the wolves at all. If he scries one, well that's an innocent villager now, not a wolf. His gifteds are there to take care of the wolves. He would also make it a point to keep his gifteds informed of what the other gifteds do and find, but he is looking for the Evil Wizard. If he discovers a wolf, well lucky him.

From my own experience (And, might I add, the only actual Good Wizard experience you have, though bad you may think I was.

) I was not worried about wolves. Ask Kuru. I directed my Seers, the few Nights they dreamed, to dream of who I thought might be the EW. When the Hunter was created, and I found out exactly what it was they did, I told spawn that she would be finding wolves while Kath and I searched for the EW.

Call it whatever you want, but I call it trying to kill the greater of two evils.

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I still think that the Good team starts out with a disadvantage but can make up ground if it plays right. If the Good team had had Night PMs in this last game, I think at least 2 of the "critical errors" would have been avoided, and maybe 4 of them could have been.

I think much the same.

littlemanpoet · 05-31-2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Well, first, I can't see what you italicized. The quote tags automatically put everything in italics, so I can't see the difference.

Ack. Oops. I forgot about that. Well you get it anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurthang

But, as to what you do mean. I don't think it's incorrect. For the first night, and Night 1 only, the Evil Wizard has three scries.

Okay, I see that I need another rule to clarify what I've always intended: the wizards are not going to find each other on Night One. I won't allow it. I just don't know how to make that work in an actual game yet, because if one wizard actually picks the other, how do you make it not happen without implying that the wizard has found the other? Oh, freepin' grrrr! Something to think about. I'll listen to any ideas on this one.

You're right that it's the seer who will inform of a dreamed werewolf and then the hunter will pick that one to kill, while the GW will always turn a werewolf into a known innocent. That makes sense. I could be wrong, but I think the balance will be there with a game played like this, INCLUDING the additional clause that wizards will not find each other on Night One. That's just plain no fun. blah.

Roa_Aoife · 05-31-2006, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Okay, I see that I need another rule to clarify what I've always intended: the wizards are not going to find each other on Night One. I won't allow it. I just don't know how to make that work in an actual game yet, because if one wizard actually picks the other, how do you make it not happen without implying that the wizard has found the other? Oh, freepin' grrrr! Something to think about. I'll listen to any ideas on this one.

If we go with Loki's idea about sending a list to the sub mods to pick from for night one, it wouldn't be a problem. I personally think it's a very good idea.

Quote:

IF he finds a werewolf, either uncurse or send the Hunter after him. Why would the GW NOT do this?

Because there's no garuntee that the hunter will be killed (and therefore able to hunt) and it leaves a werewolf running about. Now, you could have the hunter come forward as the seer and reveal the wolf, but then you lose the hunter that night, and risk losing another innocent in the process. And if the GW is already down some gifted, well that just puts them in a spot of trouble, doesn't it? But then, I think of these things.

Gurthang · 05-31-2006, 05:54 PM

I agree with Loki. And also I don't. I definitely think that the mod should make rules, the rules should have consequences, and that those rules and consequences should be adhered to strictly. But, I also think that each moderator has the choice about what rules are in his or her game and what rules are not. So the decision, as always, lies with the opinion of the moderator.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki

Let's face it, the only reason they weren't completely lost to the ages was because LMP HANDED their kills to them with the Hunter. The Seer didn't dream, the hunter didn't hunt, and the GW refused to coordinate their efforts until late in the game.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and it's legal for me to disagree.

LMP... I still am wary of your rules. It's up to you, as I just mentioned, but I think a lot of people misunderstand what the Wizards do. Or maybe they do understand, but I want to make my point anyway.

The Evil Wizard is there to survive and make wolves. That's all. Roa did a good job on both accounts. By sacrificing some of her wolves, she stayed well hidden, but left wolves that survived for the win.

The Good Wizard is there to find and take out the Evil wizard, but to do so when the Good Team has an advantage. The Good Wizard is not there to take out wolves. The village cannot win if he tries to do that. He must find and kill the Evil Wizard as soon as it is possible and convenient.

Those being the goals of the two Wizards, to make it so that the Good Wizard has less 'chances' per night to find the Evil does two things. It makes the Good Wizard's goal harder to attain and makes the Evil Wizard's goal easier to attain. Resulting in great unbalance.

But maybe the unbalance is wanted... (Who knows?)

05-31-2006, 11:58 AM	#1
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	My goodness, LMP, you are tireless. But, I would think that someone else should get the chance to mod a DW before you do it again. Maybe you could co-mod this next time around? However, since I'm not volunteering to take on head role, this is merely a cautious suggestion to hold up a bit. Others are, I'm sure, eager to have their turn at the concept. As to what to do with non-participants, I think those who read WWJVIII know my stance... Mod Fire from Heaven, charred remains smoking on the ground, and all that. You can hardly prevent non-participants from signing up (unless you do your recruitment by invitation only) so the only way to deal with it in game is to zap them. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

05-31-2006, 12:45 PM	#2
Valier Twisted Taleswapper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: somewhere between sanity and insanity Posts: 1,706	Well since I myself have offered to be a mod for the next game, since others want someone else to do it, LMP could be my co-mod. But I'm afraid my narrations would be fairly weak compared to LMP's so I would rather have someone else write them and I would do the roles and rules stuff. Unless someone else wants to Mod then LMP and I could be the co-mods... __________________ grand return?........

05-31-2006, 01:58 PM	#3
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	I'd be happy to be the evil team sub-mod... evil grin __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

05-31-2006, 02:19 PM	#4
Loki Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 31	"Perhaps a compromise could be made, such as, lynch non-participants" Bad idea. Then you're taking away from the village's choice of who to lynch. Also, you'd be taking it away from the villagers' chances of finding a wolf. Wolves are rarely non-participants. __________________ My, that's a rather sharp piece of wit you've got there. Why don't you let me take that away from you before you cut yourself? Always judge a book by it's cover.

05-31-2006, 02:25 PM	#5
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant in conjuction with the daily lynch, not in place of it. Like Diamond's Mod-fire from heaven. SMITE BUTTONS! __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

05-31-2006, 03:34 PM	#7
Valier Twisted Taleswapper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: somewhere between sanity and insanity Posts: 1,706	I think perhaps Loki since you seem to have much to say about it why don't you mod your own game with all your own rules and stipulations and see how many people will play. That would give you the chance to do it anyway you want. I would suggest playing in a few more games and obeying their Mods rules and then try it for yourself. Modding is not always easy especially in a large game with many rules. __________________ grand return?........

05-31-2006, 03:37 PM	#8
Loki Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 31	"Originally Posted by Loki "Perhaps a compromise could be made, such as, lynch non-participants" Bad idea. Then you're taking away from the village's choice of who to lynch. Also, you'd be taking it away from the villagers' chances of finding a wolf. Wolves are rarely non-participants." ^ \| You didn't take it out of context, but I would like to point out for future posterity that I misunderstood what Roa had said. It's a bad idea because I had thought that she meant IN the villagers' vote, and that would be used to lynch quiet players instead of anything else. Formendacil-- I'm aware. However, two posts per day is not outside of reasonable bounds. That's clever. Unfortunately, 5 posts in two weeks in utter nonsense. I'm looking at you, Eonwe. Naria played the quiet game. Alcarillo played it quietly. I get your point, but I do not change my opinion. There is a difference between five posts and eleven posts. Like 220% a difference. Now quit bringing this topic up, I've said my peace, and you know my opnion. I'm not going to address it again. __________________ My, that's a rather sharp piece of wit you've got there. Why don't you let me take that away from you before you cut yourself? Always judge a book by it's cover.

05-31-2006, 03:42 PM	#9
Loki Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 31	Will do, Valier. We both know how many people will join, though. Look for the thread. __________________ My, that's a rather sharp piece of wit you've got there. Why don't you let me take that away from you before you cut yourself? Always judge a book by it's cover.