Arwen

[Letty]

Am I the only person here who thinks that Liv Taylor is too ugly to play Arwen?
Not to mention Elrond...

*** Edited by The Barrow-Wight for language. No swearing/cursing allowed. Watch it! ***

[Valier]

I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, for I find Liv Tyler to be quite enchanting as Arwen.

[Anguirel]

I think she's visually perfect.

However, I do agree that somehow her Arwen gear doesn't do her justice. Watch her in Eugene Onegin and you'll be in love for weeks.

(And that's a perfectly unisex statement. I watched it once with each of my parents and they both took ages till the glint of love unrequited left their eyes...)

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Letty

Am I the only person here who thinks that Liv Taylor is too ugly to play Arwen?
Not to mention Elrond...

My male cousin found her so physically repulsive that he can't bear to watch .... says she looks like an alien.

She isn't what I imagined Arwen to look like and always looks like someone has just applied a hefty kick to her posterior.

Hugo Weaving - well I have been in love with him since I was 13. I think he is marvellous and he works for me as Elrond..especially in armour *thud*

[Boromir88]

Liv Tyler is what I like to think of classic beauty. She just seems to look gorgeous no matter what. Not like a lot of actresses who have to pound on make-up, starve themselves, and have loads of plastic surgery to look good. Liv Tyler (to me) is like that typical, ordinary, beautiful girl on the street, because she doesn't have to do anything spectacular to look good. (Though I will say she does have her father's lips and that's a bit of a problem... )

[Macalaure]

As Valier said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Liv Tyler is definitely a strange kind of beauty, who cannot match everybody's taste (she does quite match mine). But I think it was exactly this kind that Peter Jackson looked for. Whether you think Liv Tyler, Hugo Weaving or Orlando Bloom are beautiful or not, they do not look like everyday people. And nothing would have been more fatal than casting an "ordinary" beautiful person to play an elf. They should look different - to make the otherworldliness visible, which seems to be very difficult to catch for a film-maker otherwise.

edit: cross-posted

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Liv Tyler (to me) is like that typical, ordinary, beautiful girl on the street, because she doesn't have to do anything spectacular to look good.

But Arwen shouldn't look ordinary or freaky ... she is meant to strike people dumb in the presence of her beauty (or like a girl I was at college who caused guys to crash their cars just by walking by ). But really I probably could have got over the look if she acted better. She never seemed more than an adolescent throwing a tantrum; never gave the impression that she had lived three millenia ...... Miranda Otto and Viggo Mortensen were not how I imagined Eowyn and Aragorn either but they were utterly convincing.

[Cailín]

I must say I agree with Macalaure and not with you, Mith. It is impossible to find a girl who everybody will think drop dead gorgeous. As Valier said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There are some women in the filming industry nowadays - like Angelina Jolie and Jessica Alba - who are considered to be the top beauties, but neither one of them could have made a convincing Arwen, I think. I wonder who you would have in mind. I personally think PJ was looking for the otherworldly quality instead of a regular beauty.

When you look at the modelling industry today (I am a fashion freak, I admit it) you see that models like Gemma Ward and Devon Aoki are scarily successful: all women who have something freaky or alienesque about them. Ten years ago, no fashion editor would have glanced at them twice. In the days of Yeats, Maud Gonne was considered the edge of beauty. When you look at her portrait with a modern eye, hardly anyone finds her so.

With such shifting views of what is beautiful and not, Arwen needed to be timeless. While in many eyes she may be ugly and while we cannot predict whether future generations will see her beauty or not, Liv Tyler does have this Elvish quality, the something not quite ordinary aura surrounding and that will remain.

Added to that, the people who do think she's gorgeous, think she's divine. There's hardly an in between. Some men will certainly freeze in midstep when seeing her walk by. Besides, isn't having such power freaky in itself?

Of course, I am totally prejudiced. But that's not the issue.

P.S. I cannot judge her acting skills. Blaming the director for that.

[Mithalwen]

I think you misunderstand what I was saying...I meant that it was illogical to praise Liv Tyler for the role because of her ordinariness when Arwen was meant to be amazing.

I have to admit that I haven't "found" my ideal Arwen yet ... but as I said it is her acting rather than her looks that failed to convince in the end - I ended up illogically hoping the silly girl would die just to stop her pouting Maybe she was not served well by the script.

I feel that Cate Blanchett, somehow was perfect even though if you analyse her features then you might say they are not "classic" - but as Francis Bacon said there is " no beauty that hath not some proportion of strangeness in it." She really is lovely, timeless and other worldly ..and can act... but maybe I am biased towards people with aquiline noses and rusty hair

[Cailín]

I think you misunderstand what I was saying...I meant that it was illogical to praise Liv Tyler for the role because of her ordinariness when Arwen was meant to be amazing.

Then I do think I misread. I thought the 'freaky' was referring to Macalaure's points about the girl.

Ah, we all have our prejudices.

[Mithalwen]

No I meant my cousin's opinion that she looked like an alien. Honestly he contorts when he sees her as if in pain...

[Boromir88]

Mith, well I can't expect a lady to understand the manly mind (or at least mine). I think it's you that has misunderstood me. I didn't mean Liv Tyler looked like your ordinary girl. But, she's got that quality where she doesn't have to do anything spectacular to herself to look good. It's Liv Tyler's classic beauty that is what's so attractive about her. Again, she doesn't need to wear make-up, or starve herself to look good, she already does. Though I agree with you about her acting, she was definitely bad.

[ninja91]

Sorry, Letty. I cant agree with you there. Borormir88 is right about her beauty, but not her acting. Now I am going to be clear: Liv Tyler is not the hottest in the world. But she is a beauty, and thats for sure. She is perfect for Arwen. She says the words perfectly, and she fills the part to its complete. I dont see how she wasnt acting well. As for Elrond, Hugo Weaving was perfect. A stern, wise looking guy is what Elrond was, and Weaving is just that. I think that the casting for these two was terrific.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Mith, But, she's got that quality where she doesn't have to do anything spectacular to herself to look good. It's Liv Tyler's classic beauty that is what's so attractive about her. Again, she doesn't need to wear make-up, or starve herself to look good, she already does..

Well I never claimed to have a great understanding of the male mind, even/especially yours my friend but what you don't understand is the amount of effort, time and money it takes to maintain the natural look ..at least after 25 :P If you think any actress has a regime that involves nothing more than soap and water..... take a look in any woman's bathroom cupboard and multiply by 10 at least ...

[Letty]

That`s exactly the point. Arwen is supposed to be awesome. Stunning. Amazing. Terrific. Unique. Incredible.
OK,maybe Liv Taylor is not ugly,but she is none of the above,either.
She played her role well,but not too well. There was no wisdom in her Arwen, no aura of three milennia. No deepness in her eyes.
As for Hugo Weaving-his Elrond was not too bad,but it`s just that I didn`t imagine him that way.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Letty

As for Hugo Weaving-his Elrond was not too bad,but it`s just that I didn`t imagine him that way.

So how did you imagine Elrond, Letty? A bit more homey?

[Letty]

I imagined Elrond older and,of course, more handsome

[narfforc]

'And Elves are wondrous fair to look upon', so sayeth Faramir Captain of Gondor. At that point he must not have seen Miss Tyler, I am far from saying she is ugly, but Arwen is not just another elf, she is supposed to be of the likeness of Luthien the most beautiful of the Children of Iluvatar. I am sorry she is just so plain, she is'nt anywhere near being the most beautiful of mankind even, I believe there were better choices than fish-lips Tyler.

[Elu Ancalime]

Its a good thing it wasnt for a Silm movie. Who would they choose to be Luthien? Perhaps Kelly Monaco? (A femals who was on dancing with the stars, and apparently has a job in, lets say, a modeling corporation.)
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[Brinniel]

Liv may not be the most beautiful of actresses, but clearly she does have some attractive qualities. Otherwise she wouldn't have been cast in the film.

I do think several of the costumes were rather unflattering on her, though. Liv shouldn't wear low necklines- it doesn't look right with her broad shoulders....

[Roa_Aoife]

I think some people dislike Liv because they suffer from the anti-fanboy/girl syndrom. This disease is similar to the fanboy/girl syndrom, in that it shows a distinct bias involving a popular figure, however it is different in that the bias is away from, and not towards. People who succumb to this disease are most often the self-labeled "non-conformists" whom, in their attempt to be different, say exactly the opposite of whatever the crowd is saying. I came down with it recently in regards to Orlando Bloom (as has pretty much everyone else around here) but I am slowly recovering from it.

[Rant]
As for Liv Tyler, she is not ugly. Don't be rediculous. She may not be your ideal beauty, but you wouldn't say Average Jane on the street is ugly because she doesn't meet your ideal. Liv is no different. This goes to the people who call Miranda Otto "horse-face" as well. You're being silly. Both women are attractive in their own right, and if you had the chance to meet them, you would fall all over yourself about it.

Maybe they weren't how you pictured the characters, but why does that even matter? I doubt you will find a single person in the world who looks exactly how you would picture the characters. Nor will you ever find someone who is the ideal of beauty, not even just yours. Everyone will have flaws. The only way they could avoid this is to get actual Elves to come play the roles. [/rant]


THE ABOVE RANT IS DIRECTED AT THE GENERAL POPULACE, AND IS NOT MEANT TO BE OFFENSIVE, BUT MERELY STATE A FACT.

Now, I found her acting skills to be top notch. I was never given the impression of a pouting teenager, and I'm curious as to where that came from. The impression I got from her was a sort of "set apart" feeling. It was like she really wasn't apart of the world around her. And, from what I understand, that's what we were supposed to get from her. I also definitely saw her sadness, but it wasn't pouting. It was the sadness of someone who stood to lose something no matter which way the dice fell.

I also thought Hugo Weaving was great in his role, and the only thing that kept me from fully seeing him as Elrond was the "Hobbits are a virus, Mr. Underhill," line that kept running through my head. However, Agent Smith and Elrond are two enitriely different characters, and he played them entirely differently. He was perfect to me. You are all free to disagree now.

[Boromir88]

I agree Roa, a lot of people complained about Diane Kruger playing Helen in Troy...she wasn't beautiful enough, but the bottom line is I don't think any actress would have been the "perfect Helen" that we all imagine when we are told of her encompassing beauty.

And now that I think of it, Diane Kruger is one of the most stunning actresses I have seen so far, she may have been a better Arwen choice...hmm. But I still adore Liv.

[Formendacil]

To weigh in with my not-so-humble, unasked-for opinion on this, erhem, "weighty" matter...

I thought that Liv Tyler LOOKED the part of Arwen well enough. From my own experiments (in LEGO, if you can believe that) I'm quite aware of the difficulties of making anyone (or thing) LOOK the part of an immortal, drop-dead gorgeous Elf. It's simply impossible. But she had the dark hair, otherworldly look, and otherwise LOOKED the part well enough to be possibly the best looking Arwen choice.

I'm not so sure that her gowns made me think Elven at all... but her face wasn't a problem.

However, that does not mean that I liked Liv Tyler as Arwen at all. I'm not saying that she can't act- I've not seen her enough to know- I'm saying that the WAY she played Arwen clashed totally with the way I pictured Arwen. This may or may not be the fault of the writers. Quite frankly, Arwen was too adventurous when I thought she shouldn't be (the Ford of Bruinen being the ever-classic example). But, at the same time, she was too demure when I thought that she wouldn't. Arwen would NEVER have gone to the Havens, in my book- Father telling her to or no. And appearing from behind a banner all coquette-ishly... that didn't smack of Arwen either.

And, as others have said, I never got the feeling of 3000 years old from her. Elrond, yes, despite his not looking like the Elrond in my head. Galadriel, yes, despite not acting quite like the Galadriel in my head. Celeborn, yes, what little we saw of him and despite the dissimiliarities with the Celeborn in my head. But Arwen? Not even a hint.

The verdict: Arwen didn't feel like Arwen in the movies. That may be the writers' faults, it may be Liv Tyler's. I would blame both.

[Boromir88]

I never thought I would see the day when two ladies were the ones arguing over Arwen...haha funny, joke, lets slow down and breathe now.

Ok, so seriously, everything aside, I'm sure we all have had experience with theatre, acting, analyzing actors/actresses, looking at movies, our likes and dislikes...etc, and being that it all deals with opinion all of us are right. (All though I'm the only one right when I say Keeanu Reeves is a horrible actor ). But, point is, we all have good reasoning for our opinions, we all here know what we are talking about, therefor no one is wrong, whether someone agrees with you or not. Don't you just love Tolkien because of that?

[Texadan]

I seem to remember reading or hearing that Liv Tyler doesn't use computers or surf the internet much, which is a good thing. This reminds me of the time someone posted on the Bronze Posting Board that Amber Benson was fat and she was there lurking and reading posts and had her feelings really hurt. But that was the official BtVS site and this is not official so I suppose the chances of Ms. Tyler being here are remote.

[narfforc]

As a matter of fact I have Miss Tyler staying at my house at the moment, I'll just go and wake her up (she's a bit lazy), and show her how much you all adore her...........................................NOT