Reverse Gripes

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I thought that until TTT EE where Denethor sends Boromir out as a secret agent to go bring the ring back to his poppy. Boromir's character in FOTR was absolutely brilliant, he was done so sympathetically and was still one of the closest portrayed characters (though in the books he's more childish), but then TTT EE rolls around and my heart is shattered when he is sent out as an agent.

I disagree. Having just watched LotR2-TTT-Seq16, I noticed that Boromir, if he's an agent at all, is a reluctant one at best. He openly disagrees with his father the Steward, yet obeys his will, just like Faramir does. Boromir states that his place is defending Gondor, not attending some meeting of Elrond. And are we to believe that Elrond wouldn't know that Denethor was sending an agent? You can see that Denethor's mind was already poisoned, and this rot will have him sending both of his children to death (though luckily Faramir escapes the multiple attempts on his life).

Anyway, I like the Boromir of the movies much more than the brash muscleman portrayed in the books whose sole purpose seems in being a foil for the rest of the FotR. PJ's Boromir is a troubled man, wanting to do the right and honorable thing, but struggling with the mess that his father placed in his head. You might think that he could easily disobey his father's command (assuming that the Ring is playing no part whatsoever in the struggle/temptation), but if you look in your own life, you might find it hard at times to cut against the grain laid out by family, whether parents or kin. Plus, Boromir's been told that the Ring is Gondor's only salvation, and though the hundreds or thousands of people's lives that may be at stake could be on his mind, we also know that his "little brother," whom he loves, could be one of the first to feel Sauron's bite. Just how far woud you go to save your brother?

And Sean Bean plays him so well.

[Boromir88]

I can understand your argument alatar, but I think a lot of people (or 2 that I know of ) see this and think that Boromir went to the Council and the reason he joined the Fellowship was because he needed to bring the ring back to pops. He may have been reluctant, struggling within himself (which I think can be supported from the books), but to me and my niece, we felt like it showed Boromir simply joined the Fellowship so he could get his chance at taking the Ring from Frodo. Not because he wanted to do an honorable deed and help Frodo along the way, but he was just waiting for a chance to try and take the Ring from Frodo.

Now all through FOTR I did not see this, I am more sympathetic to Jackson's Boromir than Tolkien's and I think Jackson does a very good job of staying close to Boromir's character. But just that one part in TTT EE it goes back and makes Boromir show, prior motivation before even getting to the Council, that he wanted to bring the Ring back to his father.

I love the bit of TTT EE where it shows the brotherly relationship between Boromir and Faramir, I think that is also great for Jackson to show that. It's just that one scene where Denethor sends Boromir out to bring him the Ring that gets me irked.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I can understand your argument alatar, but I think a lot of people (or 2 that I know of ) see this and think that Boromir went to the Council and the reason he joined the Fellowship was because he needed to bring the ring back to pops.

I agree. Boromir does need to bring the Ring back to Gondor; first, to please Lord Tomato-Eater, then, as Boromir falls into despair, for his own and the world's salvation.

He may have been reluctant, struggling within himself (which I think can be supported from the books), but to me and my niece, we felt like it showed Boromir simply joined the Fellowship so he could get his chance at taking the Ring from Frodo. Not because he wanted to do an honorable deed and help Frodo along the way, but he was just waiting for a chance to try and take the Ring from Frodo.

Yes, he was sent to get the Ring, or prevent it from falling into the hands of the pointy-eared or long-bearded, but his words to Frodo, at the Council, show that at that moment he saw it as his duty to support the quest. "If this is indeed the will of the Council, then Gondor will see it done." Sure, later he goes back to trying to get hold of the Ring, but for a moment there, he was the Boromir who we see in TTT with Faramir.

And really, he had the most knowledge of the enemy, and so was the 'realist' of the group. Taking the Ring to Mordor was folly, and you can't fault Boromir for hoping for a better plan.

Now all through FOTR I did not see this, I am more sympathetic to Jackson's Boromir than Tolkien's and I think Jackson does a very good job of staying close to Boromir's character. But just that one part in TTT EE it goes back and makes Boromir show, prior motivation before even getting to the Council, that he wanted to bring the Ring back to his father.

"Wanted" isn't the word that I would use. He was ordered to go and fetch the Ring for Daddy and his Lord. And if he didn't, his entire world, the men that he fought with, drank with, his kin and seemingly the only people who at that time still fought the Dark Lord would fail.

Try gainsaying that if you're the Steward's son.

It was imperative that the Ring get to Gondor, as his father thinks that in the right hands it would be a weapon of great power against the enemy, which, in truth, it would. No evidence exists, apart from words of wizards and white witches to say otherwise. Isildur did not become evil, as far as we know, and lost the Ring through misfortune. Gollum, not a man, was evil before he took the Ring. My point is that how does Boromir know that the Council is correct when it states that a human claiming the Ring would become like the Dark Lord, or would turn evil? Shortly after leaving Rivendell, Gandalf (recently a jailbird) wants to travel through the Fords of Isen (did he leave something at Orthanc?), then blunders over Caradhras, then falls in Moria, and he was the purported expert concerning the Ring. Saruman, ringless and of Gandalf's type, turns to evil. Elrond is passive. What's a warrior supposed to think?

I love the bit of TTT EE where it shows the brotherly relationship between Boromir and Faramir, I think that is also great for Jackson to show that. It's just that one scene where Denethor sends Boromir out to bring him the Ring that gets me irked.

Can't think of, off hand, any scene or scenes that irked me....

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think that what PJ did the best, were the battle scenes. Yes, they were great in the books, but to actually see them on screen was absolutely spine tingling! AMAZING! I'm going to agree with all of you on Boromir, I think that the way that Sean Bean portrayed him was absolutely amazing and made him seem like such an honorable and courageous man, even though he had his faults. I also think that PJ did a great job of showing the interaction between Boromir and Faramir in the TTT EE.

[Glirdan]

Hmmm... I find that in RotK, we see a lot more of the maturity difference between Merry and Pippin. It's true that they have both grown (I'm not talking physically, but they did grow that way to). However, in the movie, it is much more apparent that Merry is the most mature of the two. My favorite scene to show this is when Gandalf and Pippin are about to depart for Gondor outside the stables. This scene really shows that difference where as in the books, it still shows them at the same maturity level.

I also enjoyed how PJ added the little scenes with Arwen and Eowyn in TTT and in RotK. It gives us more insight on why Elrond didn't want Arwen to marry Aragorn.

And perhaps one of my favorite parts was at the end of RotK when Frodo and Bilbo are ridding in the carriage and Bilbo asks "Whatever happened to my Ring". I don't know why but this scene really captured me and made me think "So, it's really over." I didn't get that feeling in the book so I'm really quite pleased with that particular scene.

[suncrafter]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I can understand your argument alatar, but I think a lot of people (or 2 that I know of ) see this and think that Boromir went to the Council and the reason he joined the Fellowship was because he needed to bring the ring back to pops. He may have been reluctant, struggling within himself (which I think can be supported from the books), but to me and my niece, we felt like it showed Boromir simply joined the Fellowship so he could get his chance at taking the Ring from Frodo. Not because he wanted to do an honorable deed and help Frodo along the way, but he was just waiting for a chance to try and take the Ring from Frodo.

Wow! I had not thought of that - but it makes sense.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I agree with others that, in FOTR, at least, Boromir was a major improvement. Reading the books, I just didn't feel much sympathy for him. To my thirteen-year-old mind, he was evil because he tried to take the ring from Frodo. Obviously, I dismissed him way too easily. It was evident in the movie that he wasn't corrupt himself, but had been controlled by the Ring...and then turned around and became the hero. The film really helped me to see him for who he was: just a guy trying to do the right thing. The time spent on developing his character in the movie, while not much more happened than in the book, really brought him into focus for me...

Regardless of what else happened in the TTTEE, I loved the scene between Faramir and Boromir. We don't see them interact at all in the books, unless you count Faramir coming upon Boromir's funeral boat. It was great to see their relationship as brothers come in onscreen.

And in general, I think especially on the first read-through, LOTR is a little overwhelming: so many characters all at once. It's a lot to take in. Upon multiple readings, we gain a good sense of each character...but I liked that in the movie, each character gets his or her turn in the spotlight, at least to some extent. All the various relationships get their share of screentime, and I'm not talking about just the romance. We see great friendships and families as well. Sometimes the movie gives a better sense of them than the book does, especially the relationships between siblings like Eowyn and Eomer (or, as I mentioned before, Faramir and Boromir).

In the book, it's obvious, of course, that they cared for each other...but reading a couple fleeting sentences in the expanse of the book is different from actually seeing the relationships in the spotlight onscreen.

Originally Posted by Azaelia of Willowbottom

I agree with others that, in FOTR, at least, Boromir was a major improvement. Reading the books, I just didn't feel much sympathy for him. To my thirteen-year-old mind, he was evil because he tried to take the ring from Frodo. Obviously, I dismissed him way too easily. It was evident in the movie that he wasn't corrupt himself, but had been controlled by the Ring...and then turned around and became the hero. The film really helped me to see him for who he was: just a guy trying to do the right thing. The time spent on developing his character in the movie, while not much more happened than in the book, really brought him into focus for me...

I was under the impression that Tolkien didn't think of Boromir as a 'heroic' figure, hence the evil attached to him in the books. It wasn't underdevelopment, it was intentional.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Originally Posted by _00_deathscar

I was under the impression that Tolkien didn't think of Boromir as a 'heroic' figure, hence the evil attached to him in the books. It wasn't underdevelopment, it was intentional.

I never intended to suggest that Boromir was entirely a hero...Just that the movie helped me to understand that he wasn't really a "bad guy", but human, and thus capable of falling under the influence of evil...or of doing acts of great good, like dying in defence of Merry and Pippin. I believe Tolkien thought of him the way I do: a man in shades of grey, not purely black or white, and I certainly can't deny that there was a lot of evil attached to him in the book, but there was also good, if we care to unearth it....it's just that in the books, he's competing with a lot of other elements for the reader's attention, and thus it's easier to dismiss him as evil rather than just flawed. In the movie, his character spends more time in focus, where it's easier to get to know him.

[MatthewM]

Wow, I just read all of this on Boromir and now I must get involved!

So many things to say. Before I start---you are all debating on the Movie Boromir mostly, and the actions he makes...I feel like most of you are referring to the movie as fact. I know this is the movie thread, but are we to just forget about the books?

In the book, Denethor didn't even want Boromir to go to Rivendell. He wanted him to stay home with his people. He much would have rathered Faramir to go-"Therefore my brother, seeing how desperate was our need, was eager to heed the dream and seek for Imladris; but since the way was full of doubt and danger, I took the journey upon myself. Loth was my father to give me leave..." "Loth" is a word meaning unwilling, reluctant. So the whole thing about "bring the Ring to Daddy" doesn't apply to Tolkien's Boromir at all. It is a thing made up by the movie. Boromir came to Rivendell to seek the answer of a dream, and once he found out the answer, THEN he knew of the Ring. There's no doubt that Boromir wanted to bring the Ring back to his father (for he loved his father), but mainly he wanted it for Gondor, for the defeat of Mordor, and for "his own glory therein" (TTT).

To the most recent poster who thinks Tolkien thought Boromir as "evil"---Tolkien never said Boromir was evil. There is no doubt some negative connotation towards him in The Letters (he mentions that Faramir had “a ‘bossy’ brother” (p. 323)), however he is never deemed 'evil'. Their was nothing evil about the character. Boromir came from Gondor, he was the main defender of his City. He knew little of outside people besides those of his kingdom and Rohan. He travels all the way from his country into Rivendell, a completely foreign place with people he has never met. In Gondor they weren't even 100% sure where Rivendell lay! From FotR-- "I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay." He joins the Fellowship to GO HOME, not to steal the Ring and bring it back. We all know he wanted to use the Ring against Sauron from the start, but he was convinced at least for a little while from the words of Elrond. He starts to wonder what it would be like to bring the Ring back along the way. He was traveling with Aragorn, a cultured Ranger who knew many peoples, many lands, and many things altogether. He also traveled with Legolas, an all knowing elf who could walk on snow. The wizard Gandalf who every so often popped in to Gondor and tried to council Boromir's father who Boromir is loyal to and obviously trusts him over the wizard. You would be weary and feel a bit alienated with this company as well! Boromir had just reason to be a bit reserved and not "open up" like they were his buddies back in Gondor. Not to mention, Boromir thought of Hobbits as fairy-tale creatures in lore, the first Hobbit to enter Gondor was Pippin, after Boromir's death!

Boromir88 said something about the book Boromir being "childlike"...how is this so? I don't see that at all. He was a mature Man with opinions and prejudices, just like us all. A lot of people here say that they like the movie Boromir better than the book Boromir. I must say, I think Jackson did a great job transfering Boromir's character from book to screen. Sean Bean does a brilliant job. I do agree there are some instances in the movies where Boromir is more "humanized" (ex: the choke up in Lorien as Galadriel looks at him), but it isn't like Boromir didn't show tears or emotion in the books. If you remember, Boromir wept after trying to take the Ring from Frodo. He wept when the madness had past. Tolkien's Boromir is more than a "foil". He was intended as a "foil" but Tolkien didn't make that his only purpose. If that was the case, he probably wouldn't have been redeemed in the end. The most notable characters in The Lord of the Rings grieve over the death of Boromir when they hear of it---

Gandalf: “Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir’s sake.” (The Two Towers) ... ""a masterful man, and one to take what he desired" (The Return of the King)

Theoden: "Alas for Boromir the brave!" (TTT)

Eomer: "Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Gondor he seemed to me, and likely to prove a great captain of his people when his time came." (TTT)

And of course there are the many words of Faramir. There you have it. There's no doubt that the act of trying to steal the Ring from Frodo was evil, but it wasn't Boromir's character that was evil. It was the Ring that made him want it, it was the temptation. That was the evil present, and in Boromir's case it was external, it played on his internal. Boromir was a hero. He was the best defender in Gondor in his time, and he defended Merry and Pippin until his death. Self-sacrifice. He was a hero.

I do wish that (like Azaelia said) that people would read into Boromir more. There is really so much to this character that few realize. His purpose, to me at least, goes beyond a "flawed character", although at least I would like people to see him as flawed (which he was) than evil (which he was not).