Numenorean Likenesses

[ninja91]

Well, I dont see the need to bash Bush, and for that matter I do not know why politics is being discussed.
But yeah, I would not mind becoming and elf...

[Glirdan]

Ninja, I'm not bashing just Bush (although I really don't like the guy), I'm maknig an inquiry(sp?) about our lives! Look at it this way: we know that the Professor incorporated WWII as well as many other symbolic representations (such as religion and science). How do we know that he didn't incorporate mankind's foolishness, greed and arrogance?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Look at it this way: we know that the Professor incorporated WWII as well as many other symbolice representations (such as religion and science). How do we know that he didn't incorporate mankind's foolishness, greed and arrogance?

I think he did.

One thing we should maybe remember, is that Tolkien himself (if I'm not totally mistaken), like his character Faramir, dreamed of a great wave that wipes away...

I think the issue has been become more emphasized and clear lately. Maybe we could compare the tsunami in East Asia and the hurricanes on the North American coast as the sea against the humans, like with Númenórë.

Maybe Tolkien was a prophet.

[Glirdan]

Maybe Tolkien was a prophet.

Now that's what I call a creepy thought. *Shudders*

One thing we should maybe remember, is that Tolkien himself (if I'm not totally mistaken), like his character Faramir, dreamed of a great wave that wipes away...

I think the issue has been become more emphasized and clear lately. Maybe we could compare the tsunami in East Asia and the hurricanes on the North American coast as the sea against the humans, like with Númenórë.

This is an interesting idea and new information to me. I rather like this comparison. My reason being is this: in any great novel (Mary Shelley's Frankenstein for instance) when somebody dies in water, they are cleansed of their sins. The same case applies to fire. We could even link this to the great flood where only Noah and his family survived. Could Tolkien have been comparing Eärendil to Noah?

[Raynor]

Could Tolkien have been comparing Eärendil to Noah?

I wouldn't say so; the closest to that would be Elendil (Tolkien calls him a "Noachian figure" in letter #131). He discussed in the letters and the Notion Club Papers about about Earendil being a divine messenger (but not Christ).

[Lalwendë]

At an entirely non-political, non-philosophical level, many people may well suffer a Numenorean fate in some way as our growing demand for land has led people to build on land which it is not safe to build on. We drain water meadows in the UK to build housing estates and they invariably end up flooding, and though people at the moment only lose their furniture and carpets, if the ice caps continue to melt they will start to lose a lot more.

The idea of the all-consuming wave is a common one in world cultures and myths, and Tolkien picks up on this. I'm sure such myths will continue to have relevance as time moves on; cultures have been lost to the waves before and they will be lost again. I suppose the element of greed comes into modern examples where people are building over our natural meadows and trying to tame rivers and seas that do not need to be tamed, as we could live elsewhere?

[Glirdan]

The idea of the all-consuming wave is a common one in world cultures and myths, and Tolkien picks up on this. I'm sure such myths will continue to have relevance as time moves on; cultures have been lost to the waves before and they will be lost again. I suppose the element of greed comes into modern examples where people are building over our natural meadows and trying to tame rivers and seas that do not need to be tamed, as we could live elsewhere?

Actually, a certain "mythological" civilization that comes to mind is Atlantis. We have absolutely no proof proving or disproving that Atlantis in fact existed, kind of like the case with Numenor. The only difference is that Eärendil brought scrolls and other artifacts with him back to Middle-Earth. However, almost all of those are now lost with the exception of the two (or is it three?) Palantiri along with the few scrolls that were salvaged. Can we link this Atlantis? I believe yes, no matter how weak it is. I myself do believe that there was an island that was sunk due to natural disasters. I mean, look at the state of California! Pretty soon, the entire state will be sunk under water due to the movements of the earth's tectonic plates. Here's how I look at it: once California goes under, how much proof will we have to prove that California did exist? Not a whole lot except old maps and other old records which might end up being burned or recycled (well, the maps will anyway). Yes, there is a point to all this jumbled up madness and here it is: besides the fact that they were also men, how many ways can we compare ourselves to the Numenoreans?