LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 03 - The Ring goes South

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

But Christopher surmises that these cannot have been meant seriously, since Nenar and Luinil, which are supposed to be "great lights in the region of Ilmen" would then refer to the very faint Uranus and Neptune - the latter of which is not even visible without the aid of a telescope.

But Aiwendil you are not taking into account that these stars would all have been identified by Elvish eyes. There are numerous examples of Elves being able to see things that humans could only see with the aid of a telescope -- given the greater powers of perception attributed to Elves by Tolkien, it would not make sense for them NOT to be able to see Uranus and Neptune, which become visible through even the most modest telescopes.

With vision as good as I think they possess (i.e. equivalent to a small refractor telescope), they would easily be able to pick out the differences between stars and planets and maybe even distinguish some features of planetary bodies. Galileo, with his telescope (the equivalent power of a decent pair of modern binoculars) could make out Uranus, Neptune, the rings of Saturn and the four largest moons of Jupiter!

[alatar]

Don't have my FotR book, and so this is strictly from memory:

Why does Gandalf arrive last when the Fellowship makes to depart Rivendell? He remains closeted with Elrond to the last minute. Where they making higher level secret plans? Did these two Ring bearers know something of the Road ahead? With the two months that Gandalf spent at Rivendell with Elrond, what was so important that they had to meet up to the moment of departure?

Did Elrond see Gandalf's fall, and so they made plans in case of that eventuality?

Surely this is not a case of the 'first being last, that being the place of honor.'

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by alatar

Why does Gandalf arrive last when the Fellowship makes to depart Rivendell?

I guess their making last-minute plans or debating over the route or debating over some world politics issue or just chatting like old gammers. You never know...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think this might be to set up the growing tension throughout this chapter concerning their path -- over Caradhras or through Moria? I always thought how smart Tolkien was to solve the problem of this portion of the book as well as he did. They had to travel a long way, so how to narrate it? A quick "and they went a long way south" or put in something to make the journey more memorable and interesting? He throws in a Wolf attack, which is good for a couple of pages, but it does not generate a sustained tension heading toward climax that a good narrative demands. So instead he has this slow build -- unseen at first by the hobbits -- toward the fateful decision to go into Moria. Having Gandalf arrive last after prolonged and secretive conversations with Elrond introduces the idea that there is something that needs to be talked about still, something that has yet to be resolved, something that is -- for whatever reason -- best left a secret to all but the most powerful and Wise. The journey ahead is a lot more than a long walk along a dangerous road: it is a long walk along a dangerous and uncertain road.

[alatar]

What was, presumably to me on the first read, very unexpected was that at the end of this chapter, the mountain wins. We have our Fellowship meet their first real obstacle, and you'd think that Gandalf or one of the others would 'do something' that would let them pass over the mountains, but no. The Fellowship has to retreat.

Quite unexpected.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Another of the now long chapters, and one almost does not know where to start about it. I am going to skip the things Esty mentions in her first post in this thread and note just the things which stand out on me, or which affected me this time.

I will start by negation. It is not true that the "Sitting by the fire" song is the only one in this chapter. Right at the beginning, we have a short poem, which, nevertheless, always comes into my mind by the end of autumn. It is short, but I quite like it, and it's not to be omitted just for that.

Have you noticed Sam's remark after Bilbo puts forward his suggestion of the end "and they all settled down and lived together happily ever after"? He pragmatically (as is his habit) adds "Ah! And where will they live? That's what I often wonder." Referring just to the Fellowship as a group, this question will be quite appropriate: at least when it comes to Frodo and Sam, definitely. If I were to put it in a very extreme words, the ultimate good end would have to ensure that the Sackville-Bagginses give up the Bag End back to the original owners. Now just look - it really ends like that, and it's very tragic perspective, actually. But let's leave the grim future for the appropriate time.

There is also one thing which really caught my eye this time, and that's these Bilbo's words about good endings.

"What about helping me with my book, and making a start on the next? Have you thought of an ending?"
"Yes, several, and all are dark and unpleasant," said Frodo.
"Oh, that won't do!" said Bilbo. "Books ought to have good endings."

Now I could not help but think - maybe it was because I read On Fairy-Stories recently - that Bilbo's response represents Tolkien's point of view, at least how presented in OFS. "Books ought to have good endings." Isn't that the Professor himself speaking here? Or having an inner dialogue with his own Frodo, who sees the world around, the threat of war and such? (Or when did he write this part?) I find this interesting, indeed.

From a different cup, I always wondered about the odd countings of "dead" Riders at the Fords. The scouts find eight dead horses, which means one horse probably survived. Also they find a tattered black cloak. Is that the cloak of the Witch-King? But then, as he was the first to ride into the water, his horse was the first one to get drowned, i.e. one of the first three horses found. Why to put the cloak away then? Legolas could surely tell us about that: A Rider escapes both from the flood and from the attacking Aragorn and Glorfindel. He leaves his horse dead, while another of his companions still has his horse unharmed. Being pleased with this, he then sits down and takes off his cloak! That at least is enough to show that he was either in serious shock after the encounter, or that he was mimicking Gandalf with the uncloaking.
In any case, I thought this time, doesn't it look a little like that the Fellowship could meet one Rider still right after they leave Rivendell? Maybe a little pressure on our feelings, to think about a possible threat when the Company leaves.

Anyway, to the rest of the chapter. A few points about equipment. The mithril-coat indeed saves Frodo in the future and had he not had it with himself, he would have died about four times, if not more (for the last time, even by the hands of Saruman by the very door of Bag End!). Another thing about equipment which returns several times in the future are Sam's words about a rope. This will return like a refrain and it kind of culminates on Emyn Muil, when the elven rope unties itself on asking.

I find it very funny how Sam thinks that Caradhras is already Mount Doom. It will be very nice, wouldn't it? Poor Sam

Legolas and Gimli are given quite a lot of space in this chapter, Gimli commenting the mountains (also in Dwarven language) and Legolas commenting Eregion and later, running around on the snow.

And Caradhras, yes, the ultimate mystery. There have been whole threads devoted to solving what Caradhras is (if it is anything), and I am not going to start even about my personal beliefs here. Let me just add this: in a way, I find Caradhras more sinister than let's say the Balrog, because it is an alien power which is not quite identified, only we know that it is an enemy.

Well, so what - does anyone have anything to say about this chapter? Don't be shy! It can be just a few lines, or a few thoughts, what you like, or what you don't like.