LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 10 - Strider

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Alatar

And we still haven't answered the question of why he was taking Narsil out for a walk

Some athletes have a lucky pair of socks. One sprinter always had a piece of paper in his shoe with the World Record time written on it. A friend of mine kept in his baseball bag a 2nd place trophy from his little league days, as it reminded him that had he gotten a hit his last time at bat in the championship game he would've had a 1st place trophy instead of a 2nd. It was there to motivate him and drive him to work harder so as to avoid yet another failure.

Narsil is the ultimate reminder. It reminds Aragorn that his ancestors had overcome Sauron and taken his Ring. It says to him, "They did it and I can too."

Narsil also reminds Aragorn that Elendil was killed by Sauron. It says to him, "Avenge me!"

Narsil could also serve as a reminder about Isildur, who fell to the temptation of the Ring. It says to Aragorn, "Don't make the same mistake."

And don't forget that Aragorn has no child to leave his heirlooms to. If Aragorn perishes, the sword might as well perish with him. Aragorn has no children because he will have no one but Arwen, and Arwen he cannot have until he retakes Middle Earth and renews Gondor, and Narsil broken and then reforged could be said to represent the breaking and then reestablishing of the line of Kings. What I mean to say is, the line of Kings and destiny of Gondor lies completely in his hands the same way Narsil does. He cannot push off his fate on another just as he cannot pass Narsil to any other. It is his burden.

Now, I'm not saying Aragorn carried Narsil with him his entire life, but at this point in the story the final chapter has begun- the quest to destroy the Ring as well as the war that is coming to a head. It makes sense to me that this would be the time that Aragorn would, for motivation and symbolism, not allow Narsil to leave his side. Aragorn is about to actually set out for the purpose of renewing Gondor. He is completely shouldering the burden at this point in his life. And in my mind the burden of Narsil goes hand and hand with that.

Or maybe everything I just said is a load of rambling garbage dredged up by an extremely sleepy brain.

[alatar]

the phantom has provided the clue that remained obscure to me all of these years. Whether or not Aragorn carried another weapon or fought more like Jackie Chan, I'll leave for another day. The reason, now obvious, that Aragorn was carrying Narsil was that he and the rest of (what will make up) the council were in an endgame. Sauron's Ring had reappeared. Either Sauron would be vanquished, or he would overrule all of Middle Earth. Sure, Narsil might increase the number of visitors at Michel Delving, but it might be of better service in the hands of the heir of the Sauron-bane. Why not? Was the idea to see how the Sword would react (and vice versa) to the Ring when the two were proximal? That's an experiment I'd like to see.

And, as stated, who would get the shards if Aragorn died? He would begat no heir unless he destroyed Sauron. Elrond, sooner or later, was leaving Middle Earth, as was giving away those things that were to remain in the east. What a yard sale that would be!

It all makes sense now. And PJ didn't have the better idea...phew!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by alatar

And, as stated, who would get the shards if Aragorn died? He would begat no heir unless he destroyed Sauron. Elrond, sooner or later, was leaving Middle Earth, as was giving away those things that were to remain in the east. What a yard sale that would be!

Presumably his next-of-kin, or the next rightful descendent of Isildur.

That descendent may or may not have been as pureblooded a Númenorean as Aragorn, and he (making a presumption here) may have been of a rather less elder line, but Aragorn was NOT, I deem, the only descendent of Aranarth, I would deem. His mother's father, Dírhael, was a descendent of Aranarth, and it would seem likely to assume that he was not the only one.

Now, that does not mean that there wouldn't have been a good deal of strife amongst the Dúnedain of the North, nor that the next in line would have been clear, or that the next in line would have been a good leader- but, assuming all things of that nature were sortable, there would have been a next-in-line, and he would have been the next rightful heir to Narsil.

It is possible, of course, that Elrond would have retained Narsil after Aragorn's death, but upon his departure into the West, Narsil would (with the other heirlooms of Arnor) have been, in proper conduct anyway, returned to the Dúnedain.

It all makes sense now. And PJ didn't have the better idea...phew!

Never for a minute worry that he did.

[davem]

Couple of debates on this very subject:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...e397336bec6522
&
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...317473c3a291cb

[Texadan]

Originally Posted by alatar

the phantom has provided the clue that remained obscure to me all of these years. Whether or not Aragorn carried another weapon or fought more like Jackie Chan, I'll leave for another day. The reason, now obvious, that Aragorn was carrying Narsil was that he and the rest of (what will make up) the council were in an endgame. Sauron's Ring had reappeared. Either Sauron would be vanquished, or he would overrule all of Middle Earth. Sure, Narsil might increase the number of visitors at Michel Delving, but it might be of better service in the hands of the heir of the Sauron-bane. Why not? Was the idea to see how the Sword would react (and vice versa) to the Ring when the two were proximal? That's an experiment I'd like to see.

Aragorn told Boromir at the Council of Elrond, "For the Sword that was Broken is the Sword of Elendil that broke beneath him when he fell. It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur's Bane, was found." I imagine Aragorn began carrying Narsil when he learned from Gandalf that the ring *had* been found.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Texadan

Aragorn told Boromir at the Council of Elrond, "For the Sword that was Broken is the Sword of Elendil that broke beneath him when he fell. It has been treasured by his heirs when all other heirlooms were lost; for it was spoken of old among us that it should be made again when the Ring, Isildur's Bane, was found." I imagine Aragorn began carrying Narsil when he learned from Gandalf that the ring *had* been found.

Does Elrond know that the Ring of Bilbo truly is the One Ring until the Council? Aragorn does have the benefit of Elrond's wisdom and foresight, and so even if Elrond wasn't sure if the Ring was the Ring, he most likely could read the signs and figure that Aragorn was either going to be King or the last of that line, and so he (Aragorn) might as well have Narsil as it might play some part unlooked for.

And though there might have been other Heirs, with the return of Sauron, the days and numbers of the Northern Line would be limited.

[Texadan]

Aragorn had spent a bit of time with Gandalf hunting for Gollum and watching the borders of the Shire. So he would know of Gandalf's suspicions and probably learned that Gandalf had confirmed them when he agreed to meet at Bree.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

We meet again! This chapter is all about one of my most favouritest characters, Strider/Aragorn. Tolkien does keep us in suspense about his nature and character at the beginning of the chapter. I can feel with him the desire to be accepted for his own sake.

Here's another thing that should have gone right but went wrong - with which results for the quest: Aragorn wanted to warn the Hobbits about going to the common room, but was hindered by Butterbur. What do you think would have been different if they had laid low that evening? Would that have changed anything, perhaps kept the attack from happening?

Strider reacts with pain and tension when asked about the Riders. That would hint at personal experience. Do we have a reference to any encounter of his with them previously? He mentions traps that had been set for him by the Enemy in the past - to what do you suppose that refers?

Then comes the ultimate "what if" scenario - what if Butterbur hadn't forgotten the letter and the Hobbits had left the Shire in the summer?

What causes Butterbur's suspicions about Strider and the Rangers? Is it just the xenophobic tendencies of Bree people? They may be more open to strangers passing through than Shire Hobbits are, but they don't seem to warm to them personally.

Sam is the last of the Hobbits to accept Strider - his provincial nature, or lack of vision for the Ranger's true character?

Why do you think Tolkien inserted Merry's adventure outside? The Black Breath is mentioned for the first time - foreshadowing his illness due to the same cause after the Witch King encounter in RotK, perhaps.

Though the Prancing Pony is not really a safe haven in this night, the presence of Strider provides one for Frodo and his friends.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

We meet again! This chapter is all about one of my most favouritest characters, Strider/Aragorn. Tolkien does keep us in suspense about his nature and character at the beginning of the chapter. I can feel with him the desire to be accepted for his own sake.

One of the most interesting things I find about this chapter is the fact that in the beginning, Tolkien didn't know any better than us readers who Strider really is. It must be interesting and I always wanted to achieve something like that when writing something, unfortunately, I always knew who my characters are when they came. It was their fault, not mine.

Concerning Strider, however, he is too mysterious here at the beginning, really. There is time when I really expect him to burst in evil laughter, slay all the Hobbits and then hand them over to the Riders. It is the first paragraph, and it culminates when he says "I had learned that he was carrying out of the Shire, well, a secret that concerned me and my friends". Brr!

One thing I just love, and I always loved it since I read it first and I laughed at it a lot (and read it to my parents, although they did not care at all, but I forced them), is this part:

"They come from Mordor," said Strider in a low voice. "From Mordor, Barliman, if that means anything to you."
"Save us!" cried Mr. Butterbur turning pale.

And of course, before it the remark of Butterbur's: "You! You're always popping up." I think this creates a sort of relief in the wholly darker tone and tension of the chapter. Well, and Gandalf's letter for example. It's nice to see something "Gandalfish" after such a long time, and it is obvious on first sight that this is Gandalf, no fake - such a Gandalfish thing cannot be fake even if the Strider was.

Here's another thing that should have gone right but went wrong - with which results for the quest: Aragorn wanted to warn the Hobbits about going to the common room, but was hindered by Butterbur. What do you think would have been different if they had laid low that evening? Would that have changed anything, perhaps kept the attack from happening?

I actually believe it could. Butterbur causes two things to happen (aside from the whole not sending the letter business): he does not admit Strider up there AND he convinces (or at least offers) the travelers to go into the common room. But actually, even down there all goes well even until Frodo sings the song for the second time. The lesson of the story? Stop at the height of things

Strider reacts with pain and tension when asked about the Riders. That would hint at personal experience. Do we have a reference to any encounter of his with them previously? He mentions traps that had been set for him by the Enemy in the past - to what do you suppose that refers?

Yes, I noticed this time as well that Strider is very, very discomforted when he speaks about the Riders. It seems obvious to me now that he encountered them in the past, and probably even more of them. It is possible he met them just recently, when he was hunting for Gollum - we know he was walking in sight of Minas Morgul, which would be a favourable place. But the way he speaks makes me think rather of some deeper and older experience. We see similar behavior of him before Moria - here, he also hints on some old experience of going there. Aragorn, for all his years of journeys all over the Middle-Earth, has surely experienced lots of horrible things, and meeting the Riders and traveling to Moria must have been among the strongest ones. The way he says "I know these Riders" makes me think of really personal experience of an encounter - is it possible that he really, like, spoke to a Ringwraith or something? Or was in the same place with him let's say for a day, for example following him? There are no hints that the Riders would know Aragorn, as far as I'm aware, and that's only logical, as Sauron's best servants would surely be able to discern the heir of Númenor in him, and they will make sure to report to Sauron, who would in turn focus more on Aragorn as person. And we know he didn't until that fateful Palantír contact. So, whatever sort of encounter his contact with the Riders was, it's probable it was more like the following-type one (Aragorn tracking a Rider who burned down a Woodmen village or something).

Then comes the ultimate "what if" scenario - what if Butterbur hadn't forgotten the letter and the Hobbits had left the Shire in the summer?

Then they would safely reach Rivendell and spend the whole autumn wondering what happened to Gandalf. It might even cause some interesting scenarios to take place, culminathing with things like Elladan and Elrohir riding to Isengard. Eru knows how it would end...

What causes Butterbur's suspicions about Strider and the Rangers? Is it just the xenophobic tendencies of Bree people? They may be more open to strangers passing through than Shire Hobbits are, but they don't seem to warm to them personally.

Seems so. Well, I believe Strider says it later - that Butterbur simply "does not trust the likes of him". You know, some vagabonds from the wilderness. As for overall xenophoby... well, I don't want to go too far, but I actually believe the Breelanders ARE quite xenophobic. Just look at their reaction on the Southerners' coming. Why, of course one is worried when lots of strange folks suddenly arrive, because he does not know what to expect from them - but the Breelanders seem a little too touchy on this aspect, overall.

Sam is the last of the Hobbits to accept Strider - his provincial nature, or lack of vision for the Ranger's true character?

I believe the former. He disbelieves even the Bucklanders, or what more, even Farmer Maggot (although that's partially because he was being mean to his master), is afraid at the very look of the Big Folk's houses, and so some Strider, even if he were a 100% proven friend of Gandalf's, does not get enough of his trust. Even after Weathertop, he is worried about Strider.

Why do you think Tolkien inserted Merry's adventure outside? The Black Breath is mentioned for the first time - foreshadowing his illness due to the same cause after the Witch King encounter in RotK, perhaps.

Definitely, and as I hinted in my commentary to the previous chapter, I find this really an interesting part; one of the things that raises my sympathies towards Merry (similarly as it seems to Strider). It is worth mentioning, however, that this is the first time a hobbit directly faces a Nazgul, and it is Merry - who, later, is the one to participate on slaying the Witch-King. We can speculate - does the experience Merry already has ("I am a veteran when it comes to Nazgul encounters") help him in any way later? Or it is merely a "model situation" (from the outside view on the story) that repeats itself later?