Has it all been said?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by davem

Is that really important? I'm less & less interested in whether Tolkien is accepted into the Literature Hall of Fame. I just want to wander in Middle-earth. That's why I came to love Tolkien's work in the first place. I didn't read LotR or TH for the first time thinking 'Well, I'm shocked that this wasn't in the classics section along with Cervantes & Austen! I must campaign to get this book accepted by the literati!' I just fell in love with world Tolkien had created.

I fell in love with the world and then had to spend 4 years more or less in the closet during my literature degree. Tolkien fandom was a love that dare not speak it's name outside linguistics class. So I am glad that he is being taken seriously. As someone who prefers the world to the stories, the idea that it was influenced by the Somme, which had never occured to me, may actually get me to reread what I found one of the most tedious parts of the book.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I fell in love with the world and then had to spend 4 years more or less in the closet during my literature degree. Tolkien fandom was a love that dare not speak it's name outside linguistics class. So I am glad that he is being taken seriously. As someone who prefers the world to the stories, the idea that it was influenced by the Somme, which had never occured to me, may actually get me to reread what I found one of the most tedious parts of the book.

Having missed out on 'Higher' education this is a trauma I have managed to avoid. I'm not sure I would have cared all that much about the reaction of others even so. As to Tolkien being 'taken seriously' I think those who love the stories have always taken him seriously & as far as the others are concerned I simply couldn't care less about them or their opinions - on Tolkien or probably anything else.

the idea that it was influenced by the Somme, which had never occured to me

John Garth's book, Tolkien & the Great War, will tell you everything you want to know. And that one is another of the very few recent books on Tolkien that is worth reading. Also full of interesting stuff on the early phases of the Legendarium.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by davem

Having missed out on 'Higher' education this is a trauma I have managed to avoid. I'm not sure I would have cared all that much about the reaction of others even so. As to Tolkien being 'taken seriously' I think those who love the stories have always taken him seriously & as far as the others are concerned I simply couldn't care less about them or their opinions - on Tolkien or probably anything else.
.

Well since they marked my essays I had to care to a point . As for my peers, I wasn't particularly confident at 19 and the flaky - barking mad thing isn't an entirely recent development. Fortunately by the time I left, I had learnt to discern between sophistication and pretentiousness...... which is why I am still in touch with only a couple of people on my course....

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well since they marked my essays I had to care to a point . As for my peers, I wasn't particularly confident at 19 and the flaky - barking mad thing isn't an entirely recent development. Fortunately by the time I left, I had learnt to discern between sophistication and pretentiousness...... which is why I am still in touch with only a couple of people on my course....

What - they'd have marked you down for liking Tolkien?? Who was the tutor - a certain Ms Greer?

I suppose the danger soon will be getting marked down for not liking Tolkien.

[Mithalwen]

Well my course was dominated by extremely pretentious people who had chosen it because it had a practical drama and they wanted to go to RADA but couldn't. But the lecturers seemed to love them and they talked about people I had never heard of and made me feel like a peasant. It was fairly clear that my tastes were desperately unfashionable and talking about them was not going to do me any favours... so I rather like the idea that they will have to read Tolkien as well as Bourroughs

The female lecturers were better ... in one seminar a tutor put to rest one childhood anxiety by explaining how to escape Daleks she and Sue Harper were fabulous. Greer was lecturing at Oxford when I did my PGCE but unfortunately the pesky teaching prac got in the way. In time I am sure she will produce "The Elven Eunuch" or some such..... given time...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

so I rather like the idea that they will have to read Tolkien as well as Bourroughs

Yes, but they'll make it serious. It will be a subject for study, a chore, something to get 'points' for doing, in order to get a career. Which is the way it all seems to be going. At least when Tolkien's work was looked down on it was read purely for pleasure - no reader was in it for the money. No-one was out to become an 'expert'. I read so many articles on 'Tolkien' now & just think 'Yeah, very clever, but why have you done this? What is the point in showing that? As an example, the other day I posted something on the CbC thread about a possible inspiration for Galadriel's temptation scene in Kipling's Rewards & Fairies. We can speculate Tolkien would have read that book (as Hammond & Scull pointed out Hobbits were probably inspired in part by the character Puck in that book & Puck of Pook's Hill. It was possibly worth mentioning in passing, having some curiosity value. It was not deserving of a long scholarly essay on Kipling's influence on Tolkien, but I've no doubt someone has done that - or will do. I could also mention that in the same book one of the characters mentions 'talking trees', & another one repeatedly says 'Yes, yess!, but its hardly worth it. It doesn't matter that Tolkien read the book & was unconsciously (or even consciously) inspired by it. Who really cares? But so much of what is being written by Tolkien scholars now is on the same level.

There are elements in the Legendarium which can perhaps be traced back to Tolkien's reading of Dusany or Morris, Wyke-Smith's Snergs, Wind in the Willows & numerous other works of contemporary fiction as well as to the Eddas, the Kalevala & the Mabinogion. But there doesn't seem to be any real insights coming out now & in most of the stuff that's being produced the connection to Tolkien is highly tenuous, & in many cases Tolkien's work is used merely as a jumping off point for unconnected waffling by individuals who seem only to be using Tolkien's name to get their work published.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I don't have a problem with all the Tolkien-centered analyses being published...but they're really not my thing.

To a point, it is interesting to read peoples' opinions on where or what his inspiration for various things came from...But much of that is just theorizing, and nothing will ever be known for certain. And after a while it begins to feel like "who cares?"

I own and have read a few volumes of HOME, and mean to check the others that I haven't out from the library this summer (since buying the whole thing would be rather expensive, even in paperback). I find it fascinating and occasionally funny (Strider as a hobbit who wore shoes?!), because I enjoy watching LOTR evolve on the page, and because it fills in some blanks. I also mean to find a copy of Letters somewhere (I can't find it through the library, so I'll probably wind up buying it). I have read a few biographies of Tolkien, but that list there is about as far as I'll probably ever go into the field of Tolkien scholarism.

Originally Posted by davem

Yes, but they'll make it serious. It will be a subject for study, a chore, something to get 'points' for doing, in order to get a career.

I almost can't find the words to express how terrible I think that would be.

I honestly hope that LOTR never becomes one of those books that is required to be read and analyzed in classrooms. The reason for this is that through middle school and the four years of high school, I have had to read and then write on many so-called classics that I just plain didn't like. I am an avid reader (which is how I came upon Tolkien), and something about having someone else's opinion of Literature being forced upon me just rubbed me the wrong way.

I understand that some kids may never read unless required to for class (and some not even then), but I have always hated the way that books were taught--tests, pop quizzes, and essays that if not done properly would cause you to fail. Through school, I was force-fed and consequently hated many books that, if left to my own devices, I may eventually have discovered for myself and loved.

I don't want Tolkien to be forced on kids. Writing about his books here and elsewhere is something I do out of love for the story, out of trying to fill some gap inside myself, rather than trying to earn a grade and get out of school. I don't want people to lose that. I don't want to be required to compare and contrast Tolkien and other authors of his time. I don't want to be required to write an essay on the "theme" of LOTR, because it would turn out to be mostly fabricated into what I think will get me a good grade based on the teacher's preferences, rather than what I truly believe. The only reason I'd like to be given a test that contains identifying which quote was said by whom, and difficult-to-find facts is because I'd get an easy A. I don't want any of that...unless I choose to do it myself, from my heart, just for fun.

And I did just that... When I was in 10th grade (I was 15-16 years old, for international 'Downers), my main subject of dread on a state-issued standardized test was the essay section. To my absolute joy and triumph, the question that year was about heroism in literature. It was an immediate adrenaline shot. I wrote about Sam. It's a pity I couldn't keep my essay because it was definitely the best thing I have ever written, especially under pressure with little planning. The graders thought so too--I got the highest grade possible. And my parents took me out for ice cream for supper. Prior to turning to LOTR, I had swiftly gone through, in my mind, a list of possible books, all of which I'd read for school, on the premise that perhaps writing about a so-called "classic" would get me a higher grade. I ruled every single one of them out, in one fell swoop: who wants to write even more about a book that they'd already been forced to analyze? Had I been required to read LOTR, I may have rejected that one, too, on the basis that I'd had waaaaaaay more than enough of that book.

I read LOTR with joy in my heart and pure excitement at having discovered for myself a new world, a truly beautiful book. I don't want anyone to lose that wonder. I do not want students to grumble about having to read some dumb book for homework, when they could be watching TV or playing video games. I don't want them to skim and skip in order to get it over with. I don't want them to leave their essays to the last minute because they have to write *gasp!* three whole pages on the theme of some 1,000 page book that they didn't want to read in the first place. I want them to cheer for Eowyn, cry with Sam, celebrate simple joys in life alongside Bilbo, watch the stars with the Elves, and ride with the Rohirrim. I want them to fall head-over-heels into Middle-earth. I want them to enjoy the journey.

I'm sure some of these hypothetical students would come out of reading LOTR with a new love for Middle-earth, but that would be a very small percentage. But for the majority, it would be relegated to that space in the back of the mind also used for the storage of outlandish chemistry formulas, confusing math equations...or whatever other schoolish things that each student found particularly frustrating and inapplicable to later life and/or was particularly reluctant to learn.

I come to the 'Downs because I want to talk about LOTR, because I feel the need to discuss the more obscure things to be found within Middle-earth. I read and write long, drawn-out posts like this one because I want to. Not because I have to. Discovery of LOTR should be for everyone what it was for most of us: a breath of fresh air, something to be read and enjoyed and loved. Not something that is to be suffered through for a grade.

Ok, that may not have been particularly on-topic. Sorry about that, but that particular rant has been lurking darkly inside me for a long time.