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06-18-2006, 06:02 PM | #1 |
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The Truth About Galadriel
In the Sillmarillion, Galadriel is referred to as an athlete, and more when she is in Valinor. Was she really an elf warrior and actually faught at events such as the kinslaying at Alqualande? If time came and she had to battle the with king himself, could she perhaps kill him since she is a women?Is she, in your opinion, the most powerful Elf in middle-earth at the time of the third age?
Last edited by High Queen Galadriel; 06-18-2006 at 09:17 PM. |
06-19-2006, 05:26 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, she is indeed a sort of warrior; but she didn't join Feanaro in the Kinslaying; she defended her mother's kindred with Celeborn, who is a Telerin Elf here. (Celeborn's kinship is somewhat confusing, just check out the UT). And in the Third Age she is acknowledged the greatest Elf in ME; she alone remained of the leaders in rebellion from Aman. Galadriel and Feanor are the greatest of the Noldor (of all times?). Although I read something about Luthien being the greatest of all Elves.
But though she played a part in the destruction of the Ring, she had no physical participation(ie, she didn't fight in the war herself nor personally go with the Fellowship) like Gandalf who went. She is sort of an inspiration for them (save maybe Boromir, who doubted her). Her gifts proved very useful even after the War (Sam's fertilizer stuff), and during the Quest itself (Frodo's vial, Legolas's bow, Gandalf).
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06-21-2006, 10:40 PM | #3 |
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In a matter of "I know more than you" Galadriel wins. In a matter of "I'll slice off your head" the Witch-King wins.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
06-22-2006, 07:08 PM | #4 | |
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How many times must it be said? THE ELDAR DO NOT FEAR THE NAZGUL. |
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06-22-2006, 07:29 PM | #5 | |
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And to continue on with what obloquy said:
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Fear is a powerful weapon, and it's one the Nazgul use effectively (and that fear is even enhanced more in the dark), but if you do not fear them, then they can be overmatched. As shown by in their encounters with Glorfindel and Gandalf.
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Last edited by Boromir88; 06-22-2006 at 07:33 PM. |
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06-22-2006, 09:39 PM | #6 |
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yeah that would be nice to see Galadriel slice the witch king in half!
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06-23-2006, 04:21 AM | #7 |
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You don't have to be scared of a car to be brutally run over and killed by one. The nazgul used fear, yes, but that doesn't mean they were helpless without it. Eyown showed no fear of the Witch-King, yet with one blow the Nazgul Lord not only shattered the shield of Rohan's Shieldmaiden, he broke her arm. A nazgul can still chop off your head whether or not you're scared. Just because you're not scared of it doesn't mean you'll beat it. Nazgul could be defeated, yet that doesn't mean bravery=instant win. At the gate of Minas Tirith, Gandalf-who did not fear the Witch-King-doubted he could win.
Also, before you guys say anything about "social rank" leading to instant victory, remember Sauron against Huan. Sauron was the greatest of the Maia, and he was utterly humiliated and defeated. Ungoliant defeated Morgoth. Thingol was torn apart by the bare hands of dwarves. Tulkas beat Morgoth. With the ring and in a powerful form, the best Sauron could do was tie with a war-weary Elendil and Gil-Galad. Smaug was beaten by Bard. Sam beat Shelob. Being an Eldar may make Galadriel un-afraid, but against a king of men from the days of Numenor who became an un-dead warlord, the fair elven lady who most likely wasn't a warrior would lose in a battle. Fear is a great power of the Nazgul, yes, but they are still pretty much non-stiff zombies with swords and combat experience regardless. Galadriel is great, yes, but I don't see how she could defeat the Morgul Lord in combat. She's great for wisdom, not for battle. While she is wiser and has a ring of power, she likely wouldn't stand a chance against the Witch-King. Sorry guys, but even if you're brave, if you aren't experienced in combat and aren't in good fighting shape, a tall, combat-ready zombie is likely going to beat you.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
06-23-2006, 09:32 AM | #8 | ||||||
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Also seeing, so great was Galadriel's power that Lothlorien would only fall if Sauron himself came...
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06-23-2006, 12:09 PM | #9 |
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AND I believe that it is stated in either the silmarillion or unfinished tales that Galadriel fought bitterly in the defense of Alqualonde.
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06-23-2006, 07:23 PM | #10 | |||||||
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*Edit: And, while we're at it: Sauron is the greatest of the Maiar in what? Somehow the concept of general greatness is not difficult for you to grasp in Sauron's case, but Galadriel's greatness requires some (spurious) qualifications. Quote:
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06-23-2006, 11:06 PM | #11 | ||||||||
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains |
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06-24-2006, 12:33 AM | #12 | |
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Maiar is the plural. Maia is the singular. In the form you used it, it should have been the plural: Maiar. 'tis foolishly pedantic, I agree, to the point of rudeness, but technically correct.
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06-24-2006, 02:54 PM | #13 | ||||||||||||||||||
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I'm not claiming that the Eldar were invincible. My claim is that in any confrontation involving Eldar and Nazgul, without the additional factor of overwhelming armies, the Eldar would not be threatened. In fact, the Nazgul would not be likely to stick around. Quote:
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The rest of your comments, particularly about gender roles in England, are bogus and not even worth responding to. Quote:
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06-24-2006, 08:45 PM | #14 | |||
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All that is ever said is that "Sauron was the greatest of Melkor's servants" (Valaquenta and The Index). Where we are told that Eonwe was one of the greatest among the Maiar (The Index), so Eonwe certainly seems more powerful than Sauron. Osse and Melian there's nothing so straight forward and clear. Melian was used as a shield against Morgoth, which makes me think she was one of the mightiest. And Morgoth, in order to control the sea tries to persuade Osse to join him.
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06-24-2006, 11:57 PM | #15 | |
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06-25-2006, 11:09 AM | #16 |
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were getting a little bit off subject here!!
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06-25-2006, 12:59 PM | #17 | |
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Witch-king vs. Galadriel (and Gandalf)
I think a hint as to what would have happened in a duel between the Witch-king and Galadriel can be found in the the following passage. If I remember correctly, two of the Nazgul, including Khamul, the WK's second in command, led the attack on Lorien from Dol Guldur.
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As for Gandalf, recall that at Amon Sul, he fought off all nine of the Nazgul together, and even then they waited till after nightfall to face him. And that was before his powers were upgraded following his duel with the Balrog. So I don't think the Witch-king would have had any better luck against Gandalf single-handedly at Minas Tirith. Peter Jackson's misleading portrayal notwithstanding, the reason that Gandalf didn't fight the Witch-king wasn't his inability to do so. Rather, if he were to openly fight the Witch-king, his supernatural abilities would become apparent. Even though he was permitted to use them a little more openly, he didn't want to do so unless absolutely necessary. Fortunately, events conspired (through Eru's grace?) to prevent this from happening. First, the Rohirrim showed up in the nick of time, and the Witch-king had other matter to attend to. Then Pippin convinces Gandalf that he must intervene to save Faramir, and by the time that situation is resolved, the Witch-king is no more. |
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07-01-2006, 01:42 AM | #18 | ||||||||||||||||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Now, to let this thread rest and prevent a flame war, do not attempt to reply to this. In the end, the victor of a battle between Galadriel and the Witch-King falls down to a war of opinions.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains Last edited by The 1,000 Reader; 07-01-2006 at 02:00 AM. |
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07-01-2006, 10:11 AM | #19 | ||||||||||
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1) 'grim' is not in there 2) softly counteracts what Pippin expected. Tolkien made every word count in his story and it's important to look at everything surrounding to get full meaning. The 'softly' is not Gandalf being 'grim' admitting he may be over-matched. It counteracts what Pippin had expected. Pippin expected Gandalf to blow up and get offended at Denethor's jab, but Gandalf keeps his cool and 'answers softly.' He dismisses Denethor's statement, "you might be right, for the Wise don't know his end." But, notice the next paragraph Gandalf just flat out tells him no. "Nay," answering Denethor's question meaning..."No I have not met my match," he came back to look after the 'hurt men' and to tell Denethor to be prepared. Quote:
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Rohan's timely arrival may have been what fulfilled the prophecy. Note, first a prophecy does not have to come true, but Rohan's arrival makes the prophecy come true. Because had the WK gone toe-to-toe with Gandalf, the prophecy would not have been fulfilled, I'm sure about that. Quote:
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Last edited by Boromir88; 07-01-2006 at 04:02 PM. |
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07-01-2006, 10:51 AM | #20 | |||
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Good post, Boromir.
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07-01-2006, 11:03 AM | #21 |
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While both Gandalf & Angmar have a physical form, Angmar's seems not to be of the same nature. Of course, he has 'sinews' that Merry's blade can sever, but he is physically invisible. If only Merry's Barrow Blade can cut the spell that held his sinews together, then it seems that what holds Angmar's body together is a magical force. Therefore, the battle between Gandalf & Angmar would come down to whether Gandalf could perform the 'spell' or speak the 'Word of Power' that would undo Angmar's magically held together physical form. From what we are told Gandalf could not do that (only the Barrow Blade could).
Therefore the question becomes 'What was the nature of Gandalf's physical form? There is no reason to believe that Gandalf's body is impervious to harm. Certainly he tells the Three Hunters: ' Indeed my friends, none of you has any weapon that could hurt me.' But its entirely possible that we should read that as him specifically referring to the weapons of Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas ( 'none of you has any weapon that could hurt me). For him to be so specific implies (possibly) that there are weapons that could harm him, but those three don't happen to be in posession of them. Now, if it is possible for a blade such as that possessed by Merry to be the only type that could harm Angmar, it is also surely possible that Angmar possessed a blade of a type that could harm Gandalf's body. Sauron was aware that Gandalf was his chief enemy (or one of them) hence it is likely that if a particular type of weapon could destroy him Sauron would arm his Leiutenant with such a weapon. What we do know is that Gandalf is afraid of Angmar, whereas Angmar not only has no fear of Gandalf, he actually states 'Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.' So, Angmar raises what is clearly a magical weapon (it bursts into flame) & clearly tells Gandalf that he is about to die. Interestingly, he doesn't use this weapon again in the battle - he chooses his mace, a purely physical weapon. It seems that the Blade has a specific purpose, namely to kill Gandalf. Gandalf doesn't have a weapon that could dispatch Angmar. Hence, it is not a question of the inherent power of the two individuals concerned, but rather that Gandalf can be killed by Angmar but Angmar cannot be killed by Gandalf. Unless Obloquy knows better, of course.... |
07-01-2006, 11:14 AM | #22 | |
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07-01-2006, 11:27 AM | #23 | ||
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07-01-2006, 12:52 PM | #24 | |
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07-01-2006, 01:24 PM | #25 | |||||||
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If Tolkien had wanted the Witch-King to have a personal name, he would have given him one like he gave Khamul; however, he never referred to the Witch-King as simply Angmar, and evidently we are to understand that any proper name he once had has long been forgotten along with his history as a Man. Quote:
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07-01-2006, 02:19 PM | #26 | ||||
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And its entirely a question of magical weapons, because Tolkien clearly states it is. Last edited by davem; 07-01-2006 at 02:24 PM. |
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07-01-2006, 04:29 PM | #27 | ||
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The two quotes that have been used to look like Gandalf feared the Witch-King, is when asked by Denethor if he was overmatched, saying "It might be so." And here: Quote:
The first one being the opposite of what Pippin expected. Pippin expected wrath from Gandalf towards Denethor, but instead Gandalf is calm and replies 'softly.' Not 'softly' as in grim, and meek which what's been suggested. But 'softly' as in a calm tone, because Pippin was fearing Gandalf would let lightning strike down upon Denethor after his comments. The second one is The Witch-King's attempt to install fear in Gandalf. It's important to know the Nazgul's patterns. Anytime they enter into an encounter they first, right from the start, try to install fear in their opponents, because that is when they are at their greatest, when they are feared. This is simply the Witch-King's attempt to put fear into Gandalf, he does some fancy tricks, lights up a sword, insults him, tells him to die, in order to put fear in Gandalf, but it doesn't work...'Gandalf did not move.' The fear card didn't work and the Witch-King leaves.
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07-01-2006, 05:18 PM | #28 | |
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This is where Obloquy is probably right - in a battle of wills Gandalf can stop Angmar, but he cannot kill him. The problem is, Gandalf cannot spend his entire life holding Angmar at bay. What we saw on Weathertop was Gandalf being able to stop the Nazgul, He was able to stop their attack on Faramir & his men. I note he never killed any of them. |
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07-01-2006, 06:21 PM | #29 |
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Where did this idea that the Barrow Blade was the only thing capable of piercing the WK's "magic" come from?
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07-01-2006, 06:43 PM | #30 | |||
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And yes, I have deliberately referred to the Witch-King as Angmar because, as I have discovered previously, it riles obloquy. But seriously, I have little problem with him being referred to as such. There are perfectly good precedents to support it, as davem, points out. And, since we all know who we are talking about by the reference, it hardly matters much.
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07-01-2006, 09:07 PM | #31 | ||||
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07-02-2006, 03:47 AM | #32 | |||
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07-02-2006, 04:18 AM | #33 |
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It isn't a simple question of who is the most powerful, who is the strongest, nor is it a question of hierarchies determining who will triumph. Morgoth was the greatest of the Valar and Sauron his greatest servant, so possibly the greatest of the Maiar. But the whole of both LotR and the Silmarillion show how small, insignificant peoples in terms of 'status' can beat these 'great and powerful' high status figures, whether through bravery, cunning or with the the help of the correct tools.
It was a twist of fate that brought Bilbo to the One Ring, and thus eventually to small, insignificant people causing the downfall of Sauron. Also important is pride and arrogance; Sauron had the arrogance to encapsulate much of his power into the One Ring without considering that it could be lost and that he would be unable to retrieve it. Likewise the Witch King had the arrogance to believe that he could not be undone. Perhaps he believed the prophecy about him a little too much. One of the weapons of those on Sauron's side is propaganda if you will, i.e. their reputations as beings of great power and invincibility; they ride on their status and do not consider that the smaller people only need to reject the notion of status in order to gain the courage to face them. In any case, the text says it was the sword itself that was the necessary 'tool' for undoing what held the Witch King together. Perhaps some of those who opposed Sauron knew that this blade was necessary, or if they really did have such power, wouldn't they have attempted to challenge the Witch King already? It seems that Aragorn might know of a tale, judging by what he says when he finds Merry's sword.
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07-02-2006, 06:54 AM | #34 |
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We also have to remember that the Nazgul were only shadows of the terror and power they would posess if Sauron regained the Ruling ring. Gandalf says something along the lines of that on the 1st page of FOTR in 'A journey in the dark'
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07-02-2006, 10:08 AM | #35 | ||
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I recommend you do some more research before participating further. |
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I still disagree to a degree. The Barrow Blade was obviously the best sword for the job (thanks for the text reference) and totally ruined the W-K in one little stab, but I don't believe that means no other blade could have harmed him. I would especially hesitate to exclude the ancient blades of the Eldar--like Glamdring--when wielded by powers much mightier than the W-K. Quote:
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07-02-2006, 11:10 AM | #37 | |||
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07-02-2006, 11:56 AM | #38 | |||
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07-02-2006, 08:19 PM | #39 | ||
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What I'm puzzled about now is Aragorn only says 'but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.' Does this mean this is only a 'spell' of the Witch-King's? For I would think if it applied to all the Nazgul, Aragorn would have said so. Or, perhaps I'm looking too far in and since Frodo stabbed at the WK, Aragorn only said him.
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07-13-2006, 12:33 AM | #40 |
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Gandalf vs Witch King
When all is said & done, it does appear overall that Sauron seems to be the most powerful enemy in ME. Not even Gandalf had the power to face the coming of Sauron at the end, as mentioned in the Council of Elrond (although even when enhanced I still do not believe he could ultimately match Sauron).
The WK unfortunately is just a "brave" cocky but powerful servant of Sauron, & through his added demonic force he thinks he can defeat an enhanced ''Balrog's Bane" - if that was the case, how many of you seriously think the WK would stand a good chance of defeating the Balrog? I think he could give the Balrog a strong battle, but ultimately the Balrog would be too strong. Therefore I think the same would happen if the WK battled it out with Gandalf the White - Gandalf's supernatural powers (in some respect comparable even to those of Sauron's) would prove too much for the WK, who would most likely withdraw with curses back to his master. Of course, Gandalf may have been anxious to face the mighty WK - who wouldn't? But then again Gandalf was fearful of the Balrog also, knowing that he was going to be put to the true test of his powers. But I don't think the WK inspired quite that same level of fear - quite a bit of the anxiety Gandalf appeared to show was probably down to the potential ruin the WK as commander of his army could inflict on Gondor - Gandalf could not keep back the storm all by himeslf , hence the cocky nature of the WK (my army is greater than your's, so what makes you think then that you can defeat me in combat?). The WK is just making every ounce of the difficult odds count in his favour by trying to instill fear - not just of himself, but of Mordor's armies, & the fate that may fall on Gondor. Last edited by Mansun; 07-13-2006 at 06:00 PM. |
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